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Bad news, GC

By Simon B (Curbaran)12/10 07:15Thu Oct 12 07:15:24 2017

Views: 1377

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/11/pensioners-told-homes-not-assets-pass-offspring-minister-revives/

'I know you're our core voters, but you'll be dead soon.'

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Yeoman12/10 10:54Thu Oct 12 10:54:07 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 866

A lot of these homes would have been bought with tax breaks back in the day, it's about time that misguided generosity was repaid, and put back into the system, rather than handed on to the fortunate offspring.

Edited by Yeoman at 10:54:34 on 12th October 2017

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Re: Bad news, GC

By cufc infinity (cufc_infinity)12/10 10:21Thu Oct 12 10:21:30 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 893

Long term, your best policy is to sit on your arse in a council house, spend your benefits on holidays,and let everyone else pay for your essentials from cradle to grave isn't it? It doesn't sound very conservative, well, no, actually it does in the fuck everyone else slant of it. VOTE LIB DEM.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Otto Flick12/10 09:44Thu Oct 12 09:44:56 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 930

not anybody's 'core voters' most think that little 'x' on the ballot paper is them signing their name.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By ncfc (moincfc)12/10 09:39Thu Oct 12 09:39:55 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 938

Thing is, a little bit of good financial advice and you can basically avoid paying inheritance tax anyway - even if you're asset rich and cash poor there are ways and means of doing it. Plenty of companies offering solutions to solve these problems. It's far easier to sit back and moan though.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 09:49Thu Oct 12 09:49:31 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 919

...even if you're asset rich and cash poor there are ways and means of doing it.

I hope you're reading this, FiL.

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FAO of Jase's FiL

By Simon B (Curbaran)12/10 10:14Thu Oct 12 10:14:06 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 894

If you are reading this, cash in and head for Vegas, m8. Just for bantz.

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Re: FAO of Jase's FiL

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:23Thu Oct 12 10:23:25 2017In response to FAO of Jase's FiLTop of thread

Views: 872

It's his money, he can do what he bloody well likes with it.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 09:31Thu Oct 12 09:31:04 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 957

While I'm not in favour of punitive inheritance tax(es), I have little problem with this - as long as the limit is set properly.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Otto Flick12/10 09:48Thu Oct 12 09:48:51 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 912

nothing wrong with a punitive inheritance tax.

Let their offspring earn their own wealth.....by fuckin working for it.

Always remember that someone's 'tax break' is some other poor bastard's tax.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 09:52Thu Oct 12 09:52:44 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 905

And in the meantime let's chuck people out of their homes at a time when they're most vulnerable due to their parents carking it.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 09:59Thu Oct 12 09:59:56 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 899

Ooh dramatic
It's not 'their' house
So you think poor people should subsidise rich kids to block the property market ?

They could always create a system that valued the home and put an HMRC % charge on it, that gets paid when it is sold or has to be paid off in x years

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:02Thu Oct 12 10:02:09 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 892

Who said anything about "rich"?

Being a compassionate sort, I prefer not to see people being forced to become homeless by the state through no fault of their own.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Yeoman12/10 10:50Thu Oct 12 10:50:06 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 818

people being forced to become homeless by the state through no fault of their own.

People who had a home through no efforts of their own either .... and no different from people whose parents didn't own a home.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:52Thu Oct 12 10:52:28 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 815

So if they're renting, are they not given an opportunity to continue living in the property, usually with government assistance?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Yeoman12/10 11:48Thu Oct 12 11:48:48 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 771

I thought this thread was about elderly people having to sell their homes to pay for care, and the fate of the children living in the said property.

Not how all this affects people renting their property.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 11:57Thu Oct 12 11:57:22 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 767

It's not, no. You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension too that the elderly would have to sell their homes to pay for care under the plans. The manifesto made it plain that this was most emphatically not the case. P67 of the manifesto, in case you were wondering.

The conversation then drifted on to general inheritance, which is where you came in re: rented property.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Herts Card (Duncan Biscuit)12/10 13:30Thu Oct 12 13:30:34 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 686

My paternal grandparents had to have their house sold when they needed full time care. Both had Alzheimers.

Country house in Worplesdon paid for my grandmother to live in a care home for over ten years. When she finally passed on there was nothing of the Estate left for my father and his siblings.

The bit that irritated us was that there were other people in the care home with the same illness that had the entirety of their treatment paid for by the NHS, whereas my grandmother's assets were liquidated in order for her to have the care because she had "savings and assets". Bugger the fact that the savings and assets were the accumulation of years of hard work, building up a business, employing up to 20 other people, never having holidays and working well into their seventies.

Looking at it - what is the incentive to work hard and save if you know that the Government will take it all from you when you die?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By skippy12/10 17:43Thu Oct 12 17:43:10 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 569

what is the incentive to work hard and save if you know that the Government will take it all from you when you die?

How about spending it as you go, because after you die what's left isn't your problem.

If my folks time it right they should have near fuck all to pass on but will have enjoyed the retirement they earned.
I was told when I was young to expect fuck all, my incentive to work hard and save is so I can do what they have, my retirement will be paid for by me working hard not because my parents worked hard.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 13:42Thu Oct 12 13:42:20 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 682

Which is why a 100,000 quid limit (including as proportion of equity in the home without having to sell it) is probably just about "fair".

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Herts Card (Duncan Biscuit)12/10 13:44Thu Oct 12 13:44:45 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 677

You have no idea just how much full time Care costs, do you?

The "Dementia" Tax is utterly abhorrent.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 13:49Thu Oct 12 13:49:34 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 676

What's your suggestion - that the state pays for it all?

If so, fair enough, but I'd like to know how.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 15:05Thu Oct 12 15:05:45 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 651

The Duke of Westminster died last year leaving £9bn to his son. Wouldn't it be more equitable to use some of that money?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 15:28Thu Oct 12 15:28:16 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 630

Er, doesn't "some" of that money already get "used"?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 20:08Thu Oct 12 20:08:34 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 507

Does it? How?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Pol Pot12/10 15:40Thu Oct 12 15:40:33 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 613

You'd better hope all trace of this thread is erased from the web by the time you become the Rt Hon Member for Osterley Central.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 15:44Thu Oct 12 15:44:07 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 602

Jumping straight to Rt Hon! Good to see ambition

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 15:42Thu Oct 12 15:42:43 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 604

Ha, no chance of that methinks!

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Re: Bad news, GC

By DMN (DMN (Shit Forum))12/10 15:27Thu Oct 12 15:27:26 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 615

Exactly. The current system favours the very rich and leaves the rest of us fighting for scraps.

Typical divide and rule.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Yeoman12/10 12:12Thu Oct 12 12:12:52 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 739

Yes, a usual slightly aimless confguide discussion. Still, the point from the OP appeared to about children inheriting homes, so I still don't see how children who are already renting would be affected by this ...

Or should I just give in on this thread lol.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Simon B (Curbaran)12/10 12:11Thu Oct 12 12:11:39 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 748

How confident are you in the current lot's ability to deliver every dot and comma of their manifesto, then?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 12:28Thu Oct 12 12:28:19 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 721

Given little bits of it have been quietly shelved already, not very!

My particular "hurray" from it, fee forgiveness for those in teaching, is being worked on behind the scenes to bring to fruition, which is nice.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card12/10 12:14Thu Oct 12 12:14:31 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 734

I'm still waiting for the fuckers to give me my voting rights like they promised in 2015.

At least they didn't claim it was 'fully costed' though. One of the more ridiculous sights of the last elections was the Corbynites lapping that one up and throwing it in the face of dissenters of if McDonnell really had discovered the Rosetta Stone of economics.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Simon B (Curbaran)12/10 12:19Thu Oct 12 12:19:13 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 728

The last Labour manifesto was like the script for an episode of Teletubbies.

Hence my query regarding the Tory one, particularly given circs since it was written.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 10:37Thu Oct 12 10:37:00 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 845

They could always remortgage
Or do you expect wealthier peoples kids to be better treated whether they bother to earn their own way or not?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:39Thu Oct 12 10:39:21 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 836

There you go, first "rich" and now "wealthier". Who said anything about either?

18 year olds just starting out in Higher Education aren't usually decent candidates for a mortgage, I'd have thought.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 10:41Thu Oct 12 10:41:12 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 833

Those who aren't wealthy don't have significant paid off houses to pass on

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:43Thu Oct 12 10:43:06 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 838

How very snobbish of you. I didn't realise JAMs weren't allowed to pay off their mortgages.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By DMN (DMN (Shit Forum))12/10 10:48Thu Oct 12 10:48:52 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 811

Peak JASE.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 10:48Thu Oct 12 10:48:08 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 820

They are then wealthy, even if they are only JAM on a day to day basis
You then expect their kids to get a tax free unearned bonus at the expense of the poor and other JAMs

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:55Thu Oct 12 10:55:53 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 809

Funny definition of "wealthy" you have there.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 10:59Thu Oct 12 10:59:21 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 798

People with wealth? Sounds wealthy to me

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 11:03Thu Oct 12 11:03:33 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 808

You see, I've got this thing called life insurance. If I were to cark it, our mortgage would be paid off.

The Missus would therefore no longer have a mortgage to pay, but would also only have one income to pay for the rest of the stuff, so wouldn't be "wealthy".

I suppose that's heinous too and she and Madam should be chucked out onto the streets instead?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By NWS15/10 01:02Sun Oct 15 01:02:09 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 126

She would be a house owner and would thus be 'wealthy'. Her income is immaterial.

Wealth is a stock. Income is a flow. You seem to have no clue as to the difference.

Made a monkey of yourself on this one.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Dave (Barra) (David (Barrovia))15/10 08:48Sun Oct 15 08:48:09 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 100

Well, that's this thread running for a second week. We could have a forum record on our hands here.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By DMN (DMN (Shit Forum))Yesterday 10:08Yesterday at 10:08:08In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 41

We're a good few weeks (months) away from beating the "What do you make of forum arguements" thread. That one went on and on for a long time.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 11:30Thu Oct 12 11:30:06 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 775

Doesn't she receive the life insurance and pay the mortgage off?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 11:36Thu Oct 12 11:36:48 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 775

Not if it's directly linked to the mortgage, I'd have thought.

But what difference does that make anyway?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 11:48Thu Oct 12 11:48:13 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 764

Does a life insurance policy count for IHT?

Not something I concern myself with - my parents don't need it and would get life insurance and death in service and my flat - gold plated Stannah for them!

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 15:12Thu Oct 12 15:12:38 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 632

It can (should) be written in trust, hence outside the estate. The payments to the policy can be deducted from the annual gift allowance so it's not taxable.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card12/10 11:32Thu Oct 12 11:32:18 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 771

But then she'll top herself with the grief and they'll dump a ten-year-old on the street, the heartless vermin.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card12/10 10:48Thu Oct 12 10:48:59 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 811

There's no such thing as society, remember?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 10:58Thu Oct 12 10:58:25 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 797

And the whole quote? ;-)

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card12/10 11:02Thu Oct 12 11:02:55 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 798

Something about families which seems relevant here...

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 11:23Thu Oct 12 11:23:10 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 782

There is a difference between 'looking after' your kids and giving them a whacking great unearned bonus

IMO inequality is an issue and I would rather tax people on death than tax people on their earnings. If you don't have serious IHT then the concentration of wealth just contributes and equality of opportunity is damaged

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 10:15Thu Oct 12 10:15:35 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 866

They wouldn't be forced out if their parents loved them enough to give them the house before they died.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:16Thu Oct 12 10:16:21 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 860

They knew they were going to have that accident and die at 42, after all.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 10:19Thu Oct 12 10:19:13 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 853

Aha. So now we aren't really formulating policy for the population... we are thinking about the very few exceptions? OK so if the parents die under the age of 65 different rules applying. But in principal you are ok with high inheritance taxes? Say 100% over £1m with a suitable timescale for main residence liquidation?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:21Thu Oct 12 10:21:04 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 861

No. It's quite an impressive leap to make, however, that someone who has declared opposition and made a case based on one extreme principle should be in favour otherwise.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By NWS15/10 01:03Sun Oct 15 01:03:51 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 121

God you really do have about three lines to keep pedalling ad nauseum don't you?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 10:23Thu Oct 12 10:23:53 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 847

I was highlighting that your argument seems to be based on exceptional cases rather than a cogent principle.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:37Thu Oct 12 10:37:56 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 837

The principle is the same throughout, the exceptional cases need to be made for emphasis.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 12:44Thu Oct 12 12:44:02 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 702

I'm not sure I really understand your principle from what you've written. So again, how about 100% IHT over £1m with a suitable timescale for main residence liquidation?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 12:45Thu Oct 12 12:45:43 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 708

Er, I refer you to this:

http://www.theconferenceforum.co.uk/article/1143538

Or, as I said right at the start, I'm not in favour of punitive taxes on inheritance.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 14:44Thu Oct 12 14:44:06 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 669

So you would prefer to tax income from hard working families rather than tax the estates of dead people with assets of over £1m. Seems a bit odd.

Edited by Baldman at 14:44:24 on 12th October 2017

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Re: Bad news, GC

By NWS15/10 01:07Sun Oct 15 01:07:04 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 125

Ha ha...he squirmed, you got him and he disappeared. About par for the course. No clue. He doesn't know the difference between income and wealth and he cannot state his opinion or answer questions when asked.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFCYesterday 09:29Yesterday at 09:29:48In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 52

Yes, how dare I have a weekend and not be on an internet forum at 1am on a Sunday morning.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By DMN (DMN (Shit Forum))12/10 15:38Thu Oct 12 15:38:34 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 606

Conservatives: Party of the Rich.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 15:29Thu Oct 12 15:29:13 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 612

So a hard working father gets taxed on his income, then when he shuffles off "he" gets taxed again on the residual that he was saving to pass on to his dearly beloved?

My preferred option would be for IHT to be borne by the recipient rather than the estate.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 15:34Thu Oct 12 15:34:05 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 610

He doesn't get taxed - he's dead
What's the difference between the recipient and the estate?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 17:43Thu Oct 12 17:43:48 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 564

1. The deceased's earnings are taxed twice, once on income, once on distribution.

2. The recipient is the individual who receives the legacy, the estate is what pays the legacy.

For example, if the deceased dies with one beneficiary, that beneficiary currently receives the full nil rate band free of tax, but if there are 4 beneficiaries they only receive 1/4 of the nil rate band each.

If an IHT allowance was given to each individual, then all would receive the same amount free of tax. Fairer IMHO. If one then receives an additional legacy from, say, a maiden aunt then this second legacy would all be subject to IHT as the individual's nil rate band has already been utilised.

The deceased is then not taxed twice, and individuals are subject to tax on their own income, rather than being grouped with others.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 18:00Thu Oct 12 18:00:46 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 552

The deceased isn't taxed twice. They are taxed once, and then they die.
The living are already taxed on distribution using your parameters. VAT for a start.
Taxing the beneficiaries like that would be an administrative nightmare!
Though I could see how taxing the estate at £100k per wife/kid would be fair enough.

Would need to have a think what would happen with family businesses and seriously big estates (though are they mainly in trust anyway?)
Forced sales of either would be economically disruptive....maybe deferred tax that just stopped you taking all profits on sales (but then the incentive would be very short term profits?)

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 19:06Thu Oct 12 19:06:26 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 529

1. The deceased is taxed on income, then distribution, and I don't think the same money should be taxed twice, even if it's post death. However, I don't think we'll agree and it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion so I'm happy to let it lie.

2. Forgive the semantics, but I would say VAT, Stamp Duty etc. are taxes on consumption, not distribution. If you gift money, it's not taxable (unless it falls foul of current IHT legislation). If you invest money, it's not taxable, until any income or capital gain that may arise. If you pay a tradesman, it's not taxable (they get taxed on their income).

3. Maybe, but is that really a problem, especially if the benefits are a fairer system? Everyone has a Personal Tax Account now, so it just needs an extra field to record how an individual's Nil Rate band has been utilised.


There are already many reliefs for IHT in current legislation (eg 100% Business Relief, spousal exemption), so these could just be claimed by beneficiaries if eligible, rather than the estate.

This isn't a fully costed proposal, and I'm sure the white paper will result in numerous amendments, but I just think the idea is fairer than current system.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 19:21Thu Oct 12 19:21:34 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 515

We need to pay more tax, we need to do something about inequality
Inheritance reinforces inequality and restricts equality of opportunity.
I would rather tax money people don't need any more than tax the income of workers and strivers.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 19:59Thu Oct 12 19:59:25 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 509

But people should also be free to decide how they use their money. If, for example, they want to give their kids an advantage by paying for an education, or save to ensure their issue have a deposit for a house, rather than rampant consumerism on the never-never leaving no assets to pass on, I don't think they should be penalised for that.

A form of Darwinism, if you will: equipping your offspring to cope better with the modern environment.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 20:05Thu Oct 12 20:05:42 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 510

so the state should ensure that the children of those who happen to be born to those with most money should be further promoted? And given the choice between taxing nurses, soldiers, shopkeepers etc or dead billionaires, we should tax those who work hard?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 21:36Thu Oct 12 21:36:41 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 445

The state should ensure that people can dispose of their already taxed money how they want, be they a hard working billionaire or an idle nurse, feckless soldier or lazy shopkeeper.

I'm not advocating the abolition of IHT, but proposing a fairer (IMO) application of it.

The burden of tax is transferred to the recipient rather than the estate. All get the same tax free allowance which is surely equitable. So a wealthy, high earning beneficiary could pay more than "hard working families", depending on how the tax rates/calculations are set.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 21:58Thu Oct 12 21:58:42 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 435

I think your idea on marginal reform of IHT is interesting and makes sense.

But I think the overall focus on income tax vs IHT penalises working people, makes society more unequal, perpetuates privilege and reduces economic productivity by promoting those who are rich over those who are most able.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Pol Pot13/10 08:11Fri Oct 13 08:11:05 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 350

I guess the problem is that it is natural to want to provide for your family. It is not natural to want to provide for total strangers.

When you are on your death bed, surrounded by your family, you will not be thinking: "And at least all those years of graft have ensured that I have helped to make society less unequal, boosted economic productivity and helped those who are most able instead of the most privileged."

Oh and I hate the way people confuse equality with fairness. Two totally different things.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat13/10 08:27Fri Oct 13 08:27:14 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 331

That's why I kept saying equality of opportunity not just equality

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 08:30Fri Oct 13 08:30:00 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 342

Equality of opportunity is also unfair because it mitigates against personal freedom.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 08:55Fri Oct 13 08:55:22 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 317

IMO...

True equality of opportunity would only be possible in an absolutist state. I think of equality of opportunity as something for government to encourage (and certainly not actively reinforce inequality of opportunity).

But the fact we won't 100% achieve it isn't a reason to neglect policy that improves it.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat13/10 08:39Fri Oct 13 08:39:00 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 331

How?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 09:14Fri Oct 13 09:14:22 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 308

Want to educate your kid privately?

Sorry...

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat13/10 09:38Fri Oct 13 09:38:41 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 308

I don't have an issue with that, doesn't make a massive difference.
Not like poor people trying to compete in the jobs or housing market with people who have a few hundred grand inheritance to subsidise them.
School fees would come under 'help your kids whilst your alive, and of course that would be more affordable if you pay more IHT and less income tax - more freedom of choice to work harder to spend more

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 09:50Fri Oct 13 09:50:08 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 304

Private education doesn't make a massive difference to one's opportunities in life?

You really are living on a different planet.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat13/10 09:59Fri Oct 13 09:59:22 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 300

I am not convinced they all do, but that comes under freedom of choice and supporting your kid whilst you are alive (and it's not cash for the kids to spunk, they will still need to use that education to earn a living)
Of course it would be nice if state education was good enough there was little gain in private schooling, but that isn't practicable money wise and the state system is hamstrung by teacher intransigence, union power grabs and politics, and political dogma from assorted governments

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 10:01Fri Oct 13 10:01:37 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 301

Which was kind of my point in the beginning....

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat13/10 10:06Fri Oct 13 10:06:36 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 296

So big IHT is good then?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 10:08Fri Oct 13 10:08:47 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 300

Erm, I've no idea how you came up with that conclusion.

Equality of opportunity is bad.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat13/10 10:36Fri Oct 13 10:36:01 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 297

Accepting that I mean moving toward equality of opportunity rather than actual exact equality (i.e. Trying to increase social mobility) why is it bad?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Pol Pot13/10 12:39Fri Oct 13 12:39:03 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 260

Is social mobility, and therefore meritocracy, necessarily a good thing? The elites will always seek to oppress the masses. Imagine the harm the powerful could do if they were also the most intelligent. I'm not convinced 'cognitive elites' would serve us any better than the old aristocracy.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 13:02Fri Oct 13 13:02:41 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 243

In Plato's Republic, Socrates defines justice as every man knowing his position in society and being happy within it.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card13/10 12:27Fri Oct 13 12:27:58 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 258

"Excuse me while I jjust move these goalposts a touch"

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 08:19Fri Oct 13 08:19:15 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 340

I agree we've been led to think that our wishes are sacrosanct after death, which may have a religious slant. But the sales pitch is that you have to pay much less tax while you're alive. Makes sense to me.

Also, in the absence of wealth tax, an effective IHT would be a more equitable tax than progressive income tax

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Pol Pot13/10 10:38Fri Oct 13 10:38:49 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 292

That sales pitch could be countered by arguments with more emotional resonance - "money for the people you love or money for bumbling bureaucrats" or "even in the grave you are not safe from the taxman" (great Daily Mail headline the last one).

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 10:42Fri Oct 13 10:42:19 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 289

Not really. I'm not advocating an increase in the overall tax take. Every pound gained from IHT should be used to reduce income tax.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 20:05Thu Oct 12 20:05:14 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 506

You will be free to spend more money if you tax live people less and keep more money for the state when dead people don't need it any more!
How late are you planning on having kids, or how early are you expecting to die?!
Most people's parents will hopefully not die until long after they have finished education and got a first place of their own.
These days inheritance is more of a pension pot than a start up

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 21:56Thu Oct 12 21:56:34 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 430

The deceased is taxed on income, then distribution, and I don't think the same money should be taxed twice, even if it's post death. However, I don't think we'll agree and it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion so I'm happy to let it lie.

Clearly it's not irrelevant here. I don't think it's acceptable to subject an individual's money to tax twice. If they want to leave it to their children or grandchildren (better?) they should be free to do so.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 22:17Thu Oct 12 22:17:02 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 416

You aren't taxing it twice, you are taxing the unearned (though sometimes being nice to one's parents can be pretty hard work) income of the inheritors. It's like a windfall tax.
Though I take your point about having to share the allowance.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 22:02Thu Oct 12 22:02:20 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 430

But if you taxed inheritance rather than income, those people would be a load richer (assuming they worked for their money) and would've been able to enjoy a better standard of living and gift more to their kids before death.

The question for you is... assuming that you have to pay a certain amount of tax during your time on Earth, would you rather pay it when you are alive or after you are dead?

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Slim Jim12/10 22:54Thu Oct 12 22:54:03 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 399

Taxation isn't either income or IHT, it's getting as much as you can from all sources whilst keeping a majority of the electorate on your side. FWIW I think it's fairly ludicrous that people working a standard week on the minimum wage pay income tax.

Re: paying tax, if I pay it now, will there be a benefit for my issue? My parents certainly sacrificed to ensure I was better off, so I hope I'll do the same.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 03:40Fri Oct 13 03:40:14 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 377

No, taxation is taking what the state needs to function from its inhabitants. Therefor you have a choice as to where every pound comes from. And if you need to get x pounds from me, I would prefer you get the majority of it from me when I'm dead.

On your second point, the amount of tax that you pay today is insufficient to meet the requirements of running the UK government. Because you are paying too little, your issue will be paying for what you have consumed long into their futures.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 23:12Thu Oct 12 23:12:16 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 394

I am not comfortable with any working adults not paying tax, I would rather they at least paid a token rate.
No taxation without representation should mainly work the other way too - it makes sure everyone has a stake in the raising of state funds, not just the spending of them.

This obviously doesn't really sit with my interest in the concept of basic income......

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Dave (Barra) (David (Barrovia))12/10 20:41Thu Oct 12 20:41:19 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 474

That's a good point.

If you want to give your brood a 'good start' spend the money on education or, heaven forfend, spend some time with them instead of working every hour that god sends. Few grand for a house deposit when they are adults.

Job jobbed.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 15:27Thu Oct 12 15:27:12 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 624

You're making another rather bizarre leap, there. Just because what you have put out there is rather outlandish and doesn't meet with my approval doesn't mean I say to do away with it entirely.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 17:49Thu Oct 12 17:49:14 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 568

It's not a leap. It's the exact implication of what you are saying.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC13/10 08:34Fri Oct 13 08:34:59 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 333

You'll have to show your workings there, I suspect.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 08:50Fri Oct 13 08:50:54 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 325

You said you are against punitive taxes. I asked whether you would support 100% tax rate over a threshold of £1m. If you do not support that, then the tax must come from somewhere else. The way we choose to tax in this country is on income. Therefore workers will bear the tax load. So if one does not support a 100% tax over £1m, one is happy for workers to pay more to protect the inheritance of millionaires' children. That's basically my point.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 12:13Fri Oct 13 12:13:37 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 271

I apologise for my shorthand. I accept you are against punitive IHT. Then I asked you a question, which you have yet to answer.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC13/10 12:15Fri Oct 13 12:15:36 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 270

What question?

You made a leading statement, I gave an appraisal of why I thought you were being inaccurate with your assertion and stated my position.

You're starting to come across like that Maidstone weirdo.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By NWS15/10 00:49Sun Oct 15 00:49:58 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 125

Just stumbled across this. You are still hurting days later.

Just to point out that you are complaining that he hasn't read what you wrote properly. That was my complaint about you, Thus, in fact you are coming across as sounding like me.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 12:43Fri Oct 13 12:43:16 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 249

This question...

Would you support 100% IHT over £1m with a suitable timescale for main residence liquidation?

If you don't I would love to understand your reasoning. My impression of the way Tories' would like to be understood is the party of aspiration and meritocracy. So I would expect a Tory to support the above policy if the proceeds are used to reduce income taxes.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC13/10 12:45Fri Oct 13 12:45:36 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 250

As I have already said - no, as I would describe this as punitive, and a disincentive to aspiration.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 14:08Fri Oct 13 14:08:52 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 213

Ok. I disagree as I think reducing income taxes for alive people would act as more of an incentive to work and succeed than reducing the tax burden on the dead.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC13/10 14:11Fri Oct 13 14:11:50 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 211

The key is you're going nuclear on the IHT issue, I'm not. It's possible to increase the IHT take to a level that would enable us not to have to find tax increases elsewhere without taking the nuclear option, I'd have thought.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 14:14Fri Oct 13 14:14:44 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 213

Of course, my question is really to establish a principle, which for me is that every pound taken out of income tax and replaced by a pound taken from IHT would lead to higher labour productivity, more incentive to work, greater equality of opportunity.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC13/10 14:21Fri Oct 13 14:21:27 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 212

Whereas the counter argument is "Why should I bother working hard and saving all this extra money for a rainy day, the government will only steal it from me and my family anyway?"

People should, IMO, be free to do pretty much whatever they want with their hard earned.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman13/10 15:04Fri Oct 13 15:04:17 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 199

'Earned.' Therein lies the rub.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC13/10 11:39Fri Oct 13 11:39:50 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 278

You see, you're misinterpreting what I said right from the outset. I said I was against punitive taxes on inheritance. You have chosen to make it a 100 percent solution or else, which is simply not the case. As it goes I AM against punitive taxes per se, but that's because I believe primarily in small government that encourages personal responsibility.

Of course, the "fairest" rate of tax is where everyone pays the same proportion. In an ideal world I'd advocate flat taxes (as used in a few countries especially in the former Eastern Bloc), but I accept this isn't really viable here due, for the most part, to spending commitments. If everyone were subject to, say, a 20 percent IHT with no thresholds, you'd have someone inheriting 100k paying 20k, someone inheriting 100 million paying 20 million. Loopholes closed (were it ever possible), job's a good 'un.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 08:32Thu Oct 12 08:32:30 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 1021

Maybe they are convinced enough that UKIP are finished ?
That was one of the most incompetent bits of the campaign - letting labour get away straight face denouncing a progressive policy that took money from the wealthy

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Simon B (Curbaran)12/10 10:21Thu Oct 12 10:21:59 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 846

Incompetent Comms met by one of the more disgusting pieces of opportunism I've seen from a Labour leader (and that is a very thick dossier).

I'm not agreeing with you, btw. That doesn't happen.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Baldman12/10 10:17Thu Oct 12 10:17:01 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 857

And improved the lot of all facing care costs. It is probably the most impressive communications screw up I've ever seen.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Jason H - ECFC12/10 10:19Thu Oct 12 10:19:26 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 850

It is quite alanis that Labour criticised this and on the hoof decided to introduce a very regressive tax giveaway.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card12/10 08:12Thu Oct 12 08:12:41 2017In response to Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 1034

Meh.

Big fat civil service pension and dividends on dead granmother's many shares should keep that wolf from the door.

I've been told there's 50 grand in an account to be inherited tax free as long as they don't snuff it in the next ten years.

Naturally I assumed it was anti-poisoning insurance.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Simon B (Curbaran)12/10 09:05Thu Oct 12 09:05:02 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 966

Canny.
My attitude to inherited wealth has hardened in recent years. Nationalise the rich, I say.

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Greek Card12/10 09:09Thu Oct 12 09:09:00 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 959

Funny how one's life experiences tend to mould people's opinions like that.

Edited by Greek Card at 09:09:10 on 12th October 2017

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Re: Bad news, GC

By Meerkat12/10 08:18Thu Oct 12 08:18:10 2017In response to Re: Bad news, GCTop of thread

Views: 1013

Capitalist Pig!!

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