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This Tory leadership contest

By ExLandlord (HUFC)11/6 10:09Tue Jun 11 10:09:38 2019

Views: 2238

I don't recall previous contests involving the "candidates" launching manifestos to the public. Besides, what's the point when only MP's get to vote in the preliminary rounds and only Tory members in the final selection. The general public (well, 98% of us) can only sit and hope.

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And Then There Were Three...

By DesCartes20/6 13:06Thu Jun 20 13:06:05 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 129

Follow you? Follow me.

Savid Jajid bites the dust.

2 spoilt ballot papers ?? !! ('Boris is a cock')

Edited by DesCartes at 13:09:21 on 20th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Shot In The Dark19/6 19:53Wed Jun 19 19:53:32 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 174

Tory leadership candidates: behold my majestic unicorn

Rory Stewart: Er, that's a donkey with a cornetto on its head.

Tory MPs: goodbye Rory

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)19/6 19:28Wed Jun 19 19:28:48 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 198

That was truly painful watching Brexit Minister Kwasi Kwarteng on C4 trying to defend Johnson on his past racist comments and not taking responsibility for the consequences of his comments on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

The only thing he didn't defend Johnson on was his non-committal answer in whether there would be a no deal Brexit.

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Stewart Gone

By Bullsgold19/6 18:09Wed Jun 19 18:09:58 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 279

Gone too soon.

That's the only half-normal one gone then. What a country!

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Re: Stewart Gone

By Denzzel (denzel ecfc)19/6 19:54Wed Jun 19 19:54:00 2019In response to Stewart GoneTop of thread

Views: 175

His fault for doing well in the leadership debate, turning up, answering questions, and talking to the public. That will never do.

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Re: Stewart Gone

By interserie19/6 21:12Wed Jun 19 21:12:37 2019In response to Re: Stewart GoneTop of thread

Views: 157

I've been kept awake at night trying to remember who Stewart vaguely reminded me of. Then I found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVFzdRZF0Q&list=RDlpqDTQOFvf0&index=8

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Re: Stewart Gone

By Pol Pot19/6 18:51Wed Jun 19 18:51:25 2019In response to Stewart GoneTop of thread

Views: 235

He'll be on the next series of I'm a Celebrity. Put money on it.

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Re: Stewart Gone

By Leeds Sandgrounder19/6 18:55Wed Jun 19 18:55:29 2019In response to Re: Stewart GoneTop of thread

Views: 226

I'm not sure it'll be as a contestant though.

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Re: Stewart Gone

By Bullsgold19/6 19:54Wed Jun 19 19:54:14 2019In response to Re: Stewart GoneTop of thread

Views: 173

"Big Sam, your challenge is to eat Rory Stewart's knee cap. 3,2,1..."

Munch.

"Congratulations Sam. You will all be dining on flesh of Rory Stewart!"

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Re: Stewart Gone

By Diane Abbott's Afro (The Luton Fan)19/6 18:39Wed Jun 19 18:39:10 2019In response to Stewart GoneTop of thread

Views: 243

If it was Jones he’d be gone too long.






What a knobhead.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Shanghai18/6 21:09Tue Jun 18 21:09:56 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 492

Boris got through without any major embarrassment so he'll be pleased.

Hunt did better than Sunday but is a boring man.

Gove did ok but nothing special

Javid was the best of the bunch tonight but his head is too round for me

Stewart was very negative and came across as a bit of a weirdo. Think he'll lose support from the base after that.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Pol Pot19/6 02:53Wed Jun 19 02:53:32 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 394

Stewart after the debate: "Well I thought maybe if I took my tie off we could get back to a bit of reality."

He could have just said he didn't feel comfortable.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman18/6 21:56Tue Jun 18 21:56:47 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 434

The reaction show on bbc news said the same about Rory

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Re: The TV debate

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)18/6 20:36Tue Jun 18 20:36:35 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 527

Well so far pretty much all wishy-washy bollocks. They are generally ignoring Emily Maitlis whenever she asks a follow up question, notably Johnson on 4 separate times when challenged on his claims based on previous comments.

Jeremy Hunt really seems to have a thing about Rory Stewart as every time RS speaks he attempts to interrupt.

And Jeremy Hunt's genius plan is to "supercharge" the economy. While Sajid Javid is brilliantly claiming he gave local authorities greater spending power and he has promised the magic money tree.

Oh and Gove has a lot of 'plans'.

Edited by Marked Ox at 20:40:03 on 18th June 2019

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Re: The TV debate

By Lenny Baryea (MUFC)19/6 14:27Wed Jun 19 14:27:13 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 307

Some interesting revelations about those asking the questions last night:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/19/disappointing-and-deluded-imam-lambasts-tory-hopefuls-on-islamophobia

Words have consequences, as they say.

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Re: The TV debate

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)19/6 17:35Wed Jun 19 17:35:17 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 250

Indeed. If it is true about his twitter previously being de-activated so the BBC not being able to check it then they have some justification with the Imam. But it is very poor with the Labour bloke who they knew about as there must have been somebody independent who wanted to ask the same/similar question who put themselves forward for this considering Johnson previous comments on the subject have been publically repeated. Then again, the BBC did have a bloke from Oxford who said he had now voted for the Brexit Party so did they specify it had to be Tory voters (as if they did, I missed it)?

Although Johnson moaning is the height of hypocrisy considering both his denial of responsibility for the consequences of his words with regards Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe; and his comments about Gordon Brown becoming Prime Minister and the need for a General Election as he didn't have a mandate.

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Re: The TV debate

By Lenny Baryea (MUFC)20/6 11:30Thu Jun 20 11:30:49 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 128

If it is true about his twitter previously being de-activated so the BBC not being able to check it then they have some justification with the Imam.

Do they?

https://twitter.com/MediaGuido/status/1141288327582310400


BBC did have a bloke from Oxford who said he had now voted for the Brexit Party so did they specify it had to be Tory voters (as if they did, I missed it)?

Labour voters would be one thing, this Aman fella previously worked for Labour!


Although Johnson moaning is the height of hypocrisy

Nah, the height of hypocrisy is accusing others of religious intolerance when your own twitter feed is (or was) awash with anti-Semitism.

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Re: The TV debate

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)20/6 13:28Thu Jun 20 13:28:16 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 96

Yes, if they weren't able to view his Twitter then the BBC have justification with the Imam.

Yes, Johnson's hypocrisy is the height of hypocrisy.

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Re: The TV debate

By Leeds Sandgrounder19/6 17:50Wed Jun 19 17:50:13 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 243

He was a Hunt plant of some description I'd guess. He complained that Stewart hadn't answered his question about how he would cut taxes, which he had by stating that he wouldn't cut taxes. Nice to see that if anyone but Stewart wins the country will be shitting money again - tax cuts and spending increases for all.

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Re: The TV debate

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)19/6 17:58Wed Jun 19 17:58:08 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 239

Agreed, the Brexit Party voter from Oxford clearly wasn't listening very hard to Rory Stewart on the tax cuts question but he did look very Gammon. Yes the Tory magic money tree is going to be hammered again.

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Re: The TV debate

By Leeds Sandgrounder19/6 18:03Wed Jun 19 18:03:15 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 239

He did look a bit sex offender-y, but so do most right-wing people.

They've got a magic money orchard now.

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Re: The TV debate

By DesCartes18/6 22:42Tue Jun 18 22:42:05 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 406

My chosen TV selection for this evening:

* Chernobyl. Final episode on 'catch-up'.
* Tory Leadership mass debate.
* Years and Years. Final episode.

I felt that it is was important to 'sandwich' the main event with relatively cheerful, light-hearted and uplifting viewing...

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Re: The TV debate

By Baldman18/6 22:47Tue Jun 18 22:47:32 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 426

What did you think of Chernobyl?

Oh, and no spoilers on years and Years. I’m about three episodes behind.

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Re: The TV debate

By DesCartes18/6 22:56Tue Jun 18 22:56:15 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 399

I thought Chernobyl was grim but excellent. Top acting and very convincing sets; it seems that it was mostly filmed at the sister power plant in Lithuania.

I kept expecting deputy chief engineer Dyatlov (Paul Ritter) to come out with 'Shit on it!' *.

I don't know if you've seen it yourself? ** Spoiler alert ** The reactor blows up.


(* 'Friday Night Dinner' reference)

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Re: The TV debate

By NWS19/6 10:20Wed Jun 19 10:20:11 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 303

Just to wreck it further the Russians did it, Baldman

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Re: The TV debate

By Feng Huang18/6 22:31Tue Jun 18 22:31:26 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 413

They all came across as shysters with their promises, with the exception of Stewart, who of course won't be the next leader/PM.

Four of them promising tax cuts and better public services and to sort out a great Brexit by 31st Oct. More Unicorms - why do people lap this stuff up?

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Re: The TV debate

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)19/6 11:06Wed Jun 19 11:06:43 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 290

Yes, that sums it up.

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Re: The TV debate

By DesCartes18/6 22:46Tue Jun 18 22:46:03 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 384

Bit worried about Rory repeatedly saying "Unlike my 4 colleagues around this table...".

There was no f*****g table, m8. Damn that opium...

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Re: The TV debate

By Bullsgold18/6 21:03Tue Jun 18 21:03:38 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 453

I'm not watching it but I guess it's just the same as the other night.

All Hunt seems to do is say is that he's going to turbo-charge the economy (I don't think anyone really knows what he's on about, including him) and butt in when Stewart speaks as he wants a piece of the "we're all humans, we all have our faults" action. Pointless man.

Edited by Bullsgold at 21:04:35 on 18th June 2019

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins18/6 20:45Tue Jun 18 20:45:52 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 492

It's quite a lollathon.

But has turned into a load of bollocks talking bollocks about bollocks.

Edited by joe hawkins at 20:51:19 on 18th June 2019

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Re: The TV debate

By Barda EUFC18/6 21:04Tue Jun 18 21:04:05 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 463

I didn't find it funny in the slightest.

Johnson is fucking useless, has no clue and how people still fail to see this is completely beyond me. It's not like his behaviour is anything new.

Hunt came across quite well, which was scary.

Gove has plans. I think they're about Corbyn. That's all he said really. Kept repeating himself. Probably due to gak.

Javid might not as well have been there.

Stewart would make a good PM but would be a poor leader for the Tory party as they all clearly hate him and the fact he stands up for bigger things than the fucking Tory party.

In summary, I cant see anything changing.

Edited by Barda EUFC at 21:04:47 on 18th June 2019

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins18/6 21:11Tue Jun 18 21:11:48 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 444

Stewart came over the best to my neutral side, and brave enough to talk about funding for the care sector but Bozza's a Brexiteer and that's the only thing really that matters right now.

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Re: The TV debate

By NWS19/6 10:23Wed Jun 19 10:23:05 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 296

Johnson who was still extolling GATT 24....Jesus God...he will say absolutely anything to fool gullible people

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins19/6 10:38Wed Jun 19 10:38:29 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 309

I don't care who says what, I just want to leave the eu which was what I voted for.

Guilible, gammon, racist, stupid, I keep hearing all this but hey whatever, as long as we leave....

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Re: The TV debate

By NWS19/6 11:02Wed Jun 19 11:02:40 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 286

You may well have done but some, probably many of your famed 52% voted for a lie. If that were not true then many of your famed 52% would not now be claiming they voted for something they claimed, in 2016, was Project Fear.

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Re: The TV debate

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)18/6 20:57Tue Jun 18 20:57:23 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 471

Agreed.

Superb sarcy question by Emily Maitlis when talking about Heathrow and asking Boris Johnson if he was now going to lie in front of the bulldozers.

Edit: Can Gove make a comment about something without mentioning Corbyn?

Oh and they've all publically agreed to an independent, external investigation into Islamophobia in the Tory Party.

Edited by Marked Ox at 21:00:21 on 18th June 2019

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins19/6 12:05Wed Jun 19 12:05:47 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 296

/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48687744

Oops....

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Re: The TV debate

By Otto Flick19/6 09:45Wed Jun 19 09:45:25 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 298

Can Gove make a comment about something without mentioning Corbyn?

You can see his point as the nightmare scenario facing the electorate at the next GE is

Boris or Steptoe?

Me?....I'm still looking for my passport.

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins19/6 10:12Wed Jun 19 10:12:01 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 303

You should hold your horses as the blue ones will be back soon.

:p

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Re: The TV debate

By Barda EUFC19/6 10:15Wed Jun 19 10:15:52 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 289

Why are you even bothered Kev?

From what I can work out, you hardly leave York, let alone the country.

All these people harking back to the 'good old days' that they are too young to have lived through or remember is fucking weird.

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins19/6 10:19Wed Jun 19 10:19:33 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 291

I’ve been static for a couple of years but before then would average 4 euro trips a year and still miss my blue passport.

I did prefer buying Amsterdam weed in Guilders tho.

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Re: The TV debate

By Barda EUFC19/6 10:23Wed Jun 19 10:23:21 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 292

You never had a blue passport mate. How can you miss what you haven't had?

Why? It makes no difference. The world has moved on. Use contactless.

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Re: The TV debate

By Joe Hawkins19/6 10:35Wed Jun 19 10:35:34 2019In response to Re: The TV debateTop of thread

Views: 290

See I'm a weirdo, I draw cash from the bank rather than use my card, and if it wasn't blue it's black and I still miss it even though it's in a box upstairs.

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The Ballot is open

By Baldman18/6 15:18Tue Jun 18 15:18:07 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 604

Let’s see if Rory can put anything meaningful together. I for one hope so. Raab, Javid and Stewart all making hopeful noises about getting the 33 required votes. To what end, I’m not sure.

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Raab...

By DesCartes18/6 18:07Tue Jun 18 18:07:33 2019In response to The Ballot is openTop of thread

Views: 575

....Can faaarrk orrrff

Everyone else still in (just).

Edited by DesCartes at 18:08:22 on 18th June 2019

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Re: Raab...

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)18/6 18:24Tue Jun 18 18:24:03 2019In response to Raab...Top of thread

Views: 548

At least one of the potential Dictators has gone then.

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Re: Raab...

By Chandampton (southampton)18/6 18:36Tue Jun 18 18:36:55 2019In response to Re: Raab...Top of thread

Views: 537

Surprised, I thought it would be Javid getting knocked out with Raab picking up votes from the two crazy bints' supporters. Boris has to face someone vaguely competent and moral in the TV debate so his little plan didn't work the slimy little cunt.

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Re: Raab...

By Joe Hawkins18/6 20:01Tue Jun 18 20:01:25 2019In response to Re: Raab...Top of thread

Views: 499

Did Bozza J not maintain his significant lead then?

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Re: The Ballot is open

By NWS18/6 16:16Tue Jun 18 16:16:08 2019In response to The Ballot is openTop of thread

Views: 575

I don't want Johnson to be PM. I do want him to take charge of brexit

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Mike C (AFC Telford) (Mike C)17/6 22:00Mon Jun 17 22:00:44 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 693

I've seen someone comment on Twitter that the candidates need to get at least 33 votes each tomorrow to stay in the contest. That means that there is a possibility, however unlikely, that five of them could fail to get to 33 each. That would leave one candidate would be off to meet the Queen tomorrow evening.

They reckon that this time tomorrow Boris could be PM!

But is that correct? Or does it go to the Tory membership even if one of the two "going through" only polled 30?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By DesCartes17/6 22:47Mon Jun 17 22:47:40 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 682

That would mean the two that picked up more than 33 last time now losing votes and not picking up enough others from the 3 that fell by the wayside to make it back up to 33.

With these additional votes going to someone else - and not necessarily Johnson. I'm personally expecting Rory Stewart to get at least 33 in this next vote.

Ain't gonna happen.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Feng Huang17/6 23:06Mon Jun 17 23:06:46 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 682

Think Javid and Stewart will fall leaving the next ballot between Boris, Hunt, Raab & Gove

Raab should pick up a fair few of Loathsome's and McVey's votes, not that there are many, but he only to get from 27 to 33

Gove & Hunt should pick up something from the other two fallen candidates

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By DesCartes17/6 23:20Mon Jun 17 23:20:41 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 665

But Stewart is now 2nd favourite, albeit a long way behind Johnson (can we stop referring to the toerag as 'Boris'?)

See Oddschecker.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Feng Huang18/6 09:28Tue Jun 18 09:28:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 616

I know but assume that's bollox. This is tory MPs voting ...

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins17/6 23:36Mon Jun 17 23:36:15 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 646

Bozza suits him, boss man Bozza J perhaps.

Apart from his pro Brexit stance the thought of him as PM worries me too.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 23:16Mon Jun 17 23:16:04 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 656

I think Raab may go. Gove, Hunt and Boris to survive. Boris way ahead, Hunt into second. Gove drops out. Then either Hunt drops out or they go to the members.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Nigel L18/6 01:04Tue Jun 18 01:04:34 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 647

I would be surprised if the Conservatives go for a coronation, given they do not have a majority in the House.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat18/6 08:11Tue Jun 18 08:11:19 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 632

Not understanding your point about the majority??
A coronation avoids a bitter battle that damages the leader for their fight against Jezza. Jezza isn’t a savvy opponent but even he could manage a few “your own colleagues said xxxx during your leadership campaign”
It also avoids any more stupid promises....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman18/6 10:29Tue Jun 18 10:29:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 612

It would be a waste of time for Hunt to go to the members...

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140885369476587521

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Sev16/6 19:23Sun Jun 16 19:23:29 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 922

Bit of fun isn't.

No one wanted the job last time because they knew they'd be in the shit and leave a legacy of failure. So they all pulled out and let May have it.

This time they all see an opportunity to achieve something given the current state of rock bottom.

So now they're all competing like it's a general election.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Barry Homeowner (D Piddy)16/6 19:57Sun Jun 16 19:57:35 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 884

Doesn’t make sense. The next one will either take us out and face the shit show as a result (when we can’t get a better deal and people lose their jobs) or realise the potential shitshow and pretty much decimate the Conservative party. It’s a lose/lose situation.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Leeds Sandgrounder16/6 19:41Sun Jun 16 19:41:25 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 887

This is wank.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Ste B16/6 08:38Sun Jun 16 08:38:58 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1037

Who do the resident Confguide Tories want to win this?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)16/6 08:45Sun Jun 16 08:45:13 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1021

This question was made for Jason.

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Matt Hancock

By Baldman14/6 11:07Fri Jun 14 11:07:34 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1196

Out!

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Re: Matt Hancock

By Ian Chesterton15/6 15:49Sat Jun 15 15:49:03 2019In response to Matt HancockTop of thread

Views: 1086

He's had his half hour in the spotlight.

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Re: Matt Hancock

By Otto Flick15/6 16:02Sat Jun 15 16:02:00 2019In response to Re: Matt HancockTop of thread

Views: 1061

and I said at the time of their opening statements, along with Raab, they were the least impressive of the bunch and that took some doing.

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Johnson wins...

By DesCartes13/6 13:07Thu Jun 13 13:07:01 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1377

...the first ballot.

Missing the cut: McVey (hooray!), Leadsom (yay!), Harper (meh).

Rory lives on!

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Re: Johnson wins...

By Otto Flick14/6 09:10Fri Jun 14 09:10:51 2019In response to Johnson wins...Top of thread

Views: 1177

I am in no way sexist but if there is one positive outcome from all of this its the fact that we are guaranteed not to have a female PM.

The experience of the last two didn't end too good ( come to think of it the start and middle wasn't all that clever either).

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Re: Johnson wins...

By Baldman14/6 09:33Fri Jun 14 09:33:47 2019In response to Re: Johnson wins...Top of thread

Views: 1163

Whereas the last two men have been huge successes.

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Re: Johnson wins...

By Chandampton (southampton)13/6 14:33Thu Jun 13 14:33:08 2019In response to Johnson wins...Top of thread

Views: 1299

Oh great we're going to get a prime minister who needs to be hidden as much as possible so people don't realise what he's really like.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins12/6 12:15Wed Jun 12 12:15:21 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1635

"Kick the can again and we'll kick the bucket" is a line I heard from Bozza J, and as a confirmed kicker of buckets I like the cut of his jib there....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 11:59Thu Jun 13 11:59:15 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1372

I suspect that he won't. However, if he does then the one positive will be his annihilation. Let's label this project fear and you can vote for it

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 12:30Thu Jun 13 12:30:12 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1341

His hand is certainly strengthened with parliament voting to keep no deal on the table yesterday, media has him down as favourite as it's said he can bring the Brexit party & UKip back onboard.

I don't know where you were at the time but we did have a vote about this, that's why we're leaving....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 12:38Thu Jun 13 12:38:37 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1338

I know we did. All the leave voters claim they liked what remain was saying and voted on that basis. Quite strange to vote for remains warnings of economic doom and gloom. I see Leadsom was further conditioning you to believe they offered it and you lapped it up in 2016. Sadly, but not surprisingly, they said it was nonsense in 2016. Still well done on voting for those job losses.

Lucky I did remember that vote, eh. Shame you have forgotten sunlit uplands, great deal etc

Edited by NWS at 12:39:38 on 13th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 12:51Thu Jun 13 12:51:39 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1333

I'm not bothered about any of those and that what you mention, I'm not a european and so don't want to be part of their political union, no more and no less.

It really is that simple when it comes down to it.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 20:25Thu Jun 13 20:25:46 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1218

'You're not a European'.

Another leave lie exposed unless your name is Escobar or something and you are from South America or something.

Edited by NWS at 20:26:25 on 13th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 20:33Thu Jun 13 20:33:14 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1236

My passport says I'm a British citizen, I say I'm British English, not european, I see europe as 'the continent' and from being a kid crossed the English Channel to get there, usually Calais in France which is part of europe, then sit on a train to Port Bou before arriving in Spain, which is also in europe.

Nip to Gib tho and you're back in Britain....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS14/6 09:36Fri Jun 14 09:36:40 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1131

You're passport is immaterial to this point. You are both British and European you dodo. It's not a case of what you think you are or what you believe. It's a fact. It's a bit like you believing in unicorns without them actually existing.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins14/6 09:59Fri Jun 14 09:59:54 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1143

No, I'm not a european, I'm purely 'little Englander' and always have been and always will be.

Dodo?

You need to chill out a tad, it's Friday, go get yourself out to a duck do or something.

Edited by joe hawkins at 12:18:09 on 14th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By uptheshots16/6 20:59Sun Jun 16 20:59:14 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 837

If you aren't european then what continent do you come from?

Or do you not come from planet earth? Atually don't answer that....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 13:31Sat Jun 15 13:31:30 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1045

Just so you can deliver the punchline

What's a duck do?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins15/6 13:57Sat Jun 15 13:57:08 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1039

Haha, funny really as I was talking about this last night with my jam buddy, he'd not heard it before and said the classic line :)

He knows what one is now :p

Quackers....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 14:05Sat Jun 15 14:05:13 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1038

Love it. There is always the other one about using a hen way...What's a hen way...about 5lbs😂

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins15/6 16:16Sat Jun 15 16:16:03 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1027

I never count my chickens before they're hatched.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman14/6 00:04Fri Jun 14 00:04:44 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1156

It’s quite simple.

A continent is a large landmass. You can carve up the world into the large separate land masses... like Europe, although that is basically attached to Asia. Asia includes countries such as Turkey, Russia and Egypt while Europe includes countries like Turkey and Russia. Africa includes countries like Egypt. Hopefully that clears up the difference.

Britain is not a continent because there is only one country there (excluding Ireland) Australia may be a continent, even though there’s only one country there. Or it may be part of Oceania which isn’t some made up name from Stingray or something, it’s a real place. And it includes Indonesia. As does Asia.

It’s cut and dried Joe.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Auto John Donne (Greek Card)13/6 21:40Thu Jun 13 21:40:28 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1173

Every man is a piece of the continent

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 21:42Thu Jun 13 21:42:08 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1168

Quite, but if only the pieces represent their place of origin.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Sweepy13/6 21:37Thu Jun 13 21:37:46 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1179

What is the name of your continent?!?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 21:40Thu Jun 13 21:40:17 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1164

Acomb.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)13/6 21:39Thu Jun 13 21:39:07 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1165

Unicornia would be my suggestion.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins20/6 15:22Thu Jun 20 15:22:20 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 78

I love unicorns.

2 years ago the device I wear on my arm was a unicorn, a year back it was a 50/50 unicorn and today my local CCG has emailed me with their final position statement, which follows the national guidelines finally.

So, unicorns exist and are obtainable if you're prepared to ballache fight for them.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By DesCartes13/6 21:23Thu Jun 13 21:23:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1186

The archetypal inward-looking isolationist xenophobic little Englander.

Who also failed their GCSE Geography exam.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Slim Jim14/6 16:50Fri Jun 14 16:50:36 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1073

When I was first dealing with Dutch customers, about 15 years ago, we were unable to take card payments in Euros.

At least 4 of the quoted the "fog in the Channel, Continent cut off" gag. Plus ca change...

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 21:32Thu Jun 13 21:32:20 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1171

I didn't do the geography exam but yes, that's me.

Where did I get wrong? Port Bou? In Spain not France?

I remember dad carrying a ring of garlic cloves around the town for the couple of hours it took for passports to be checked, mum brought them back to Blighty....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By in passing (ATFC) (in passing)13/6 21:09Thu Jun 13 21:09:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1174

Have you got a new passport, then? Mine says “EUROPEAN UNION“ on the front!

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 21:19Thu Jun 13 21:19:50 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1168

Aye, mines got that crap on it too, but states I'm a British citizen, which is the bit I identify with.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Chandampton (southampton)13/6 13:21Thu Jun 13 13:21:33 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1286

What was wrong with May's deal then?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By DesCartes12/6 07:26Wed Jun 12 07:26:19 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1643

Rory Stewart - one of the few candidates who isn't a car crash - releases campaign video:

Edited by DesCartes at 08:45:59 on 12th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Jawknee (Barnet Ben)11/6 17:34Tue Jun 11 17:34:57 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1714

Has this one been done yet?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Differentiabull16/6 09:34Sun Jun 16 09:34:01 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 979

The really most bizarre thing about that was the Thatcher picture hanging off the lecturn. Real Alan Partridge stuff.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)16/6 10:32Sun Jun 16 10:32:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 953

It is McVey, I think she had managed bizarre or crap throughout her campaign and it was a desperate attempt to get support.

She has now backed Johnson, will that be a curse?

Edited by Marked Ox at 10:32:51 on 16th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat16/6 10:36Sun Jun 16 10:36:36 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 951

Do you reckon they will end up all backing Boris, with widely varying levels of enthusiasm?
Some think he has no real policies and is controllable, others think he just has so much popular backing he can take on Jezza for vacuous dog whistles at an election.
And if they don’t think they can keep him out the last two they probably can’t beat him anyway so why damage their eventual election leader with a bitter personal campaign....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman16/6 11:25Sun Jun 16 11:25:20 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 933

Yes that’s my feeling. It is effectively over as a contest. The rest is just positioning. Also, as flawed as that Telegrapg poll was, it would have turned the heads of those who wish to remain as MPs past the next election.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Greek Card16/6 12:55Sun Jun 16 12:55:18 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 931

Who the fuck are these people/voters in love with Boris?

I think I know one single person who doesn't think he's a cunt.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Leeds Sandgrounder16/6 14:13Sun Jun 16 14:13:00 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 904

All the Tories I know think he's a cunt as well.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Pol Pot16/6 13:50Sun Jun 16 13:50:39 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 922

There will be some.

Say you knew someone who was very opinionated and rather overbearing on politics but you didn't want to get into an argument with them because:

1) You couldn't be bothered
2) Didn't want every occasion you saw them to degenerate into an episode of Question Time

So you would just nod or pretend to agree and hope they'd start banging on about something else.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Sweepy16/6 15:43Sun Jun 16 15:43:56 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 893

Shaaaaaade.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)16/6 11:13Sun Jun 16 11:13:56 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 933

Certainly Rory Stewart doesn't care about his relationship afterwards with Johnson based on his comments so far. Gove has nothing to lose as there is already bad blood between them.

The others I think will end up backing Johnson as they get knocked out/withdraw. And the only way I can see Johnson not winning is he talks himself out of it.

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Rory's citizen assemblies

By Pol Pot16/6 12:18Sun Jun 16 12:18:12 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 936

Rory Stewart: 50,000 people could get a phone call to ask them to sort out Brexit, like jury service.

"It would be like a jury selected very scientifically across the country, whittled down to be representative of the country as a whole" and then "make recommendations".
People would get the calls at the end of July.

"We can get this done in a matter of weeks."

The process of citizen assemblies would take "three weeks of sitting in public, with television cameras watching them take the evidence".

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Re: Rory's citizen assemblies

By NWS18/6 11:17Tue Jun 18 11:17:25 2019In response to Rory's citizen assembliesTop of thread

Views: 580

This would result in 10,000 headbangers for Brexit, 10,000 headbangers for remain and 30,000 stuck in the middle scratching their heads.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Auto Bwooder (Marked Ox)11/6 10:57Tue Jun 11 10:57:02 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1833

Well it is good to know Raab wants to become a dictator if he doesn't get what he wants from Parliament. Brexiteers and "getting back" parliamentary sovereignty shown to be a lie again.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Shanghai11/6 10:52Tue Jun 11 10:52:37 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1849

I've been watching that Thatcher documentary on BBC2 recently. What struck me was the fact that she had a very easy to follow belief/ideology, whether you disagreed or agreed, and then her polices followed based on this. No idea what most of these contenders ideologies are. Just seem to be spouting random polices.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 20:52Wed Jun 12 20:52:12 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1421

I've just started watching it. man, it's a different world. people just don't speak like that any more.

I remember meeting posh people when I was younger... they had that buttoned-up accent and hated football. The younger ones I meet now all speak with a middle class accent and love the game. .. they even claim to support a team (look at Dave). They move amongst us without us knowing

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Mr Nice (Forever Claret 83)11/6 10:36Tue Jun 11 10:36:58 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1836

I guess its because with such a wide field the public perception is probably more important. Also, its probably a lot about being in the news as much as possible as well.

There are a lot of private hustings going on as well between candidates and Tory MP's. Shame they are all completely secrete as it would be good to know if there is a difference between what is publically and privately said in terms of future plans.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat11/6 10:12Tue Jun 11 10:12:15 2019In response to This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1884

How else would they get to the members, who are members of the public after all.
Public opinion must influence the MPs a bit too - they have to knock on doors and sell the winner to the proles

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Otto Flick11/6 13:30Tue Jun 11 13:30:59 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1779

Our self serving Tory git of an MP has only knocked on my door once and never returned.

Maybe it was the dogs I unleashed...

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS11/6 10:33Tue Jun 11 10:33:01 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1845

I presume you want a general Election once they decide a leader?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By interserie11/6 14:33Tue Jun 11 14:33:50 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1757

I realised this morning watching the news that I have lived under 14 DIFFERENT Prime Ministers (ie Blair, Thatcher and Wilson each only count once). Clement Attlee was PM and that young Mr Churchill was still to serve another 4 years. George VI was King when I first bothered the staff of the Lying-in Hospital, Waterloo (now a Premier Inn).

Sky were showing the list of Tory wannabees and I wouldn't piss on any of them if they burst into flame. What a useless bunch they are - not that Labour, Liberal or any of the rest of the ragtag army of MPs would be any better. What a state we are in.

Edited by interserie at 14:35:01 on 11th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Otto Flick11/6 15:44Tue Jun 11 15:44:18 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1706

I realised this morning watching the news that I have lived under 14 DIFFERENT Prime Ministers


.."and been bloody poor under all of them"

..Alf Garnett

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By DesCartes11/6 15:05Tue Jun 11 15:05:51 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1744

The Lying-in Hospital, Waterloo? Coincidentally, that was where Boris was born.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By interserie11/6 15:13Tue Jun 11 15:13:55 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1739

Sadly not. Rather he was born somewhere in Manhattan's Upper East Side in New York City.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Where's JASE? (Barda EUFC)11/6 15:21Tue Jun 11 15:21:42 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1715

This is a WHOOSH referral is it not?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat11/6 10:42Tue Jun 11 10:42:15 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1829

No

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS11/6 16:43Tue Jun 11 16:43:37 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1698

Eh? So you complain about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels but are happy to accept an unelected Prime Minister. I laughed at your undemocratic claims before. Now they look utterly bogus.

Edited by NWS at 16:43:53 on 11th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat11/6 16:50Tue Jun 11 16:50:19 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1695

The party was elected, and the individual is elected.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Dave (Barra) (David (Barrovia))11/6 23:04Tue Jun 11 23:04:56 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1651

Tbfl, Boris is against someone just stepping into the job without being elected by the country so we probably will have that election fairly soon if he gets the gig.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/without-mandate-british-people-how-boris-johnson-described-gordon-brown-2007

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)12/6 10:19Wed Jun 12 10:19:33 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1573

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-tax-cuts-tory-leadership-conservative-party-prime-minister-a8951781.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560183699

Boris buying the Tory members with public funds if you take this write up on face value.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS11/6 23:55Tue Jun 11 23:55:03 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1631

Hilarious. Johnson is a muppet. People keep on about keeping Corbyn out of No10. I would take Corbyn over Johnson.

Now Dave, are you really hopeful that Johnson will provide us with a general election and a vote on Europe to ensure a democratic mandate or are you just jesting😂😂😂

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Dave (Barra) (David (Barrovia))12/6 07:13Wed Jun 12 07:13:39 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1602

I’m just keeping ol’ Meerkat up to date with his next leader’s thinking. No point him wasting his time with “we elect a party, not a PM” when Johnson is on the record as saying the people should have a say.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Chandampton (southampton)12/6 00:39Wed Jun 12 00:39:28 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1616

I would take any other MP over Johnson, while a few others are more stupid (Raab, McVey), I just can't stand the thought of that philandering con-artist who has only ever been out for himself achieving his lifelong ambition and getting the most important job in the land. I don't care who does it but someone has to take him down.

Edited by southampton at 00:39:47 on 12th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat12/6 11:29Wed Jun 12 11:29:53 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1566

Isn’t an ambitious politician who will bend to whatever is popular better than a dogmatic extremist who won’t bend?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Leeds Sandgrounder12/6 14:09Wed Jun 12 14:09:25 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1504

I think we currently have the worst of all worlds with the current government. Swivel-eyed austerity dogmatists who present themselves as hard-headed pragmatists and the pathologically self-interested presenting themselves as people of principle.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 13:34Wed Jun 12 13:34:24 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1510

Ha ha...you elected (deliberate choice of word) not to engage further with myself or Dave. Laughable, purely laughable.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lord M.Ox (Marked Ox)12/6 10:17Wed Jun 12 10:17:07 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1569

I wouldn't take Raab or Leadsom as they basically want to become dictators if they don't get their way by cutting Parliament out yet apparently Brexit is all about getting Parliamentary sovereignty.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Chandampton (southampton)12/6 10:56Wed Jun 12 10:56:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1555

I'm surprised Raab can dress himself, he'd last about week.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS11/6 22:41Tue Jun 11 22:41:31 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1651

The EU works differently but everyone gets elected (although I point this FACT out every time).

A few months ago I pointed out that the cabinet was not elected but chosen by the Prime Minister. You and Baldman set about telling me that this did not matter because in the election everyone had voted for a party knowing who the leader was and what their manifesto was. Now, it seems, to suit a change of direction. More contradictin and rank hypocrisy.

To sum up. The Commission of the EU is elected by 750+ representatives of all the citizens of Europe who were voted in by proportional representation (I. E. Every vote counts) and you consider that undemocratic. However, Boris Johnson or whoever will become Prime Minister of the UK through the votes of 60,000 party members and you are OK with that. Just when I thought you couldn't get more ludicrous and laughable with your contradictory arguments you manage to do so.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 06:49Wed Jun 12 06:49:03 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1626

Since I was namechecked...

The cabinet is made up of (almost entirely) elected MPs.

The Commission is made up 100% of people who have not been elected.

It’s up to you whether you think one is a better system than the other, but those two statements are LutonFacts

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 13:24Wed Jun 12 13:24:19 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1531

On October 22nd the EU commission was elected with 423 for, 209 against and 67 abstentions.

What is it about elections you do not understand?

Just to enrage the anti-Lisbon Treaty brigade lobby further here is something I found out.

"The Treaty of Lisbon strengthened the role of Parliament further. Whilst previously, the nomination of a Presidential candidate was merely "approved" by Parliament (Article 214(2) TEC), Parliament now elects the candidate (Article 17(7) TEU), which places particular emphasis on the political linkage between Parliament and Commission. "

I've highlighted in bold the bit you need to try and get your head around.

Edited by NWS at 13:29:41 on 12th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Leeds Sandgrounder12/6 14:05Wed Jun 12 14:05:48 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1504

That's my birthday. It put a dent in the attendance at the party to be honest.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 13:37Wed Jun 12 13:37:30 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1516

I can’t believe we are going to do this again.

So, our Commissioner is Julian King (bet you didn’t know that!). Can you give me the details or his election, who he stood against, and how many votes the other candidates got?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 13:55Wed Jun 12 13:55:40 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1518

Julian King, I have read that several times. I've even included it in replies to you but don't let facts get in the way of some snobby attempt to try and appear clever.

He was selected by David Cameron (the UK's elected PM) to be a commissioner. Mr Juncker proposed that he be security commissioner. He was then given approval by the EU Parliament and the council of the EU and then elected in by the EU Parliament on October 22nd. So, in effect he was selected in the same way that government ministers are chosen from a group of MPs. He was then proposed by the EU Commission President. Given initial approval by the EU Parliament (i.e. the ministers representing the whole of Europe not just certain parts) and the EU Council (i.e. elected representatives from ALL member states not just some) and then formerly elected by the EU Parliament. I have to confess that I don't know who the other candidates were when Cameron chose him. Sorry, I've lost Cameron's number.


As you are up for question and answer sessions, can you just explain what election actually means with particular reference to the need for opposing candidates. I'd also be interested to know when I get to vote for one of the Tory candidates as Prime Minister or for/against a Tory party with them as leader.

Edited by NWS at 13:59:48 on 12th June 2019
Edited by NWS at 14:01:50 on 12th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 14:19Wed Jun 12 14:19:20 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1504

“Can you just explain what election actually means with particular reference to the need for opposing candidates.”

Ahhh Comrade Stalin, it’s good to see you back.


BTW I wasn’t trying to appear clever. I had no idea who Julian King was.

The cabinet have (pretty much) all been elected to Parliament. In this form of an election the constituents get a choice of a number of candidates in a context that anyone can enter. It’s completely open to you whether you are a millionaire or pauper. Amazing eh?

Then almost everyone who lives in that area gets to directly choose from a range of options who would be the best man or woman for that job. The results are published to the electorate and in 5 years they can remove that person or vote for them again.

From these people who have been through this “election process” a leader is chosen and they organise themselves into an executive. In 5 years time all of them will have to face the people who are impacted by their decisions and explain themselves or lose their jobs.

This is democracy. It’s imperfect, but it’s democracy.

Our European Commissioner never stood in front of the people of Britain (or of the other 27 states). He never had to prove he was better than the other candidates (there were no other candidates). He doesn’t have to go back and explain himself to the people of Britain or the other member states.

All he had to do was to be Cameron’s mate and be uncontroversial enough to be approved by the Parliament. But he doesn’t stand there and be approved by himself in an open vote. No, the whole commission is voted upon together. As a whole.

Here’s a question for you... how many times has the Parliament voted down the Commission?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 16:01Wed Jun 12 16:01:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1469

So you expect me to answer your questions but you decide not to answer mine and then have the cheek to produce your ad hominen.

I'm well aware of how our electoral process works. That is not what I asked.


I will try again. What does elect actually mean and I am particularly interested in reference to the need for an opposing candidate?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 16:12Wed Jun 12 16:12:49 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1477

You’re right... you can have an election without another candidate...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-africa-48084124

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 16:21Wed Jun 12 16:21:20 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1466

And in the US you had a contest between Trump v Clinton.

However, you have now admitted that elections don't mean the need for more than one contestant.

On that basis, are you still claiming the EU Commission is not elected, given that there was a vote of elected MEPs?

Oh and to answer your earlier question, the EU Parliament forced the Santer Commission to resign in 1999.

Edited by NWS at 16:27:13 on 12th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 18:02Wed Jun 12 18:02:32 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1439

You’ve taken a position and nothing will move you from it NWS. You think that an election where a candidate stands with no opposition is a legitimate form of democracy. I don’t think I can help you sir.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 18:06Wed Jun 12 18:06:34 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1439

See. Now you have changed it because you know where this is heading.

I was disputing your claim that the commission is unelected.

On your new point that you have chosen to move to because you have lost the elected/not elected debate. MEPs are voted for by the electorate. Yes/No?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 18:24Wed Jun 12 18:24:12 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1439

Sigh

Yes

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 00:08Thu Jun 13 00:08:43 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1399

So we have some directly elected (clue: I just gave you the phrase you have failed to use along the way) representatives in the EU and thus have the democracy you so love at that point. In the EU Council we have national government ministers so 2/3 of the institutions running the EU have directly elected officials. It is the other third you complain about. The Commission. They are chosen, initially by national prime ministers, then by the President of the Commission then election by the Parliament. Not the democracy you seem to crave but nonetheless democracy.


How is the House of Lords decided and, since you complain about the EU President as 'head of state' can I ask where I vote for the UK head of state.

Edited by NWS at 00:10:24 on 13th June 2019
Edited by NWS at 00:13:49 on 13th June 2019
Edited by NWS at 00:20:57 on 13th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman13/6 07:12Thu Jun 13 07:12:47 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1357

You seem to be arguing against someone else here.

I never complained about an unelected ‘head of state’ as you call it (the EU is not a state, so the concept makes no sense).

I never said that the EU had no elements of Democracy. I said that it’s democratic mandate is suspect. Westminster is a more democratic body , particularly or the British people. Incidentally, although I don’t know much about it, I would suspect that the Welsh assembly is more democratic for Welsh people than Westminster).

So we agree that the Eu Parliament is directly elected and therefore has the strongest democratic mandate.

In the Council we have appointees that have been democratically elected elsewhere. Do I get to vote for those people? No. But you could argue the same for the constituency system. It just depends on how comfortable you are with a Europe-wide electorate vs British electorate. The other problem is that the votes of 300k Maltese are given the same weight as 40m Germans, which weakens claims to be democratic.

I think we have agreed that the Commission is not democratically elected by the people. It is made up of rubber-stamped appointees. Fine, so like the House of Lords. The problem with that analogy is the balance of power. The HoL is a secondary house of the legislature. The Commission is the executive.

So, with an elected executive, an elected legislature and an unelected second house with little power, Westminster is more democratic than the EU which has an elected legislature, an unelected executive and a ‘strategic body’ that is elected but via a system that gives some votes 100 times more power than others.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 10:48Thu Jun 13 10:48:52 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1334

No Baldman. I'm not. It's just that you forgot what you argued a few months back.

I don't disagree that Westminster is a more democratic body for the UK. That is obvious. It is entirely for the UK.
It is not a more democratic body in comparison.

Just to note I put 'head of state' in single quotation marks to recognise that the EU is not a state. To this end you claimed the Commission President was unelected along with the commission even though they are elected. You later say that we agree the commission is not democratically elected by the people. Sorry, Baldman, but we do not agree. I have not directly elected the commission but the representatives I voted there have. That is democracy. It might not be what you want but it is nonetheless democracy with the whole of the legislature (representing all the people) voting on the executive function. Meanwhile, I get a UK PM voted in by a very small percentage of the population. This PM voted in by a very small percentage of the population then solely decides who is in the executive. You have previously argued that we are aware of who this will be prior to the general election. I would point you to cabinet reshuffles that go on. By your logic we need an election every time otherwise we have people being appointed to the executive without it being democratically elected by the people. You might want to stop confusing being voted into the legislature (as an MP) with being appointed to the executive (cabinet). I trust you will see any new Tory prime minister as not directly elected to the post of PM.

Just point out that you got to vote for the UK section of the EU council. You do recognise that the same argument could be said of the UK constituency system. When we chat about democracy and votes not counting I would point out that the recent EU elections all votes counted towards deciding the make up of the legislature. Compare that to Ukips 4m votes and one MP result.

Your last paragraph again highlights your fundamental misunderstanding of the word elects. I suggest you get a dictionary and look it up because you are simply part-parroting Farage propaganda.

The EU executive is elected by the EU legislature. The UK executive is rubber stamped appointees decided by the PM (try to stop confusing the constituency MP role with the cabinet role). If you want to talk about rubber stamped appointees ask youself how many people would give Chris Grayling a cabinet role.

So the UK with an executive decided by one member of the representive legislature, a directly elected legislature using a system that does not adequately represent the political make up of its area and an appointed second house is less democratic than the EU with it's executive elected by all members of the representative legislature, a legislature that is directly elected by voters using a system where all votes count towards the make up of the parliament and a council including individuals that have been directly elected by the people of their individual nations.

Now please go understand the word elect or continue to sound like a second rate Farage

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman13/6 10:51Thu Jun 13 10:51:32 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1340

**backs away slowly**

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 11:54Thu Jun 13 11:54:05 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1317

That's because you know that what I say makes sense. In the middle of your diatribe you actually explained the reason for the lie in crystal clear fashion when you spoke about it depending on whether you want a Europe wide system or something limited to the UK. To then take this and present the former in bogus format, as has been consistently done by leavers and you, to achieve the latter is pathetic.

The simple fact is that your supposedly superior democracy will by the end of July consist of a PM and executive that nobody was given a chance to vote for, save a few thousand Tory members, a second houSE that nobody votes for ever and a legislature that is decided by a system in which vast swathes of people votes are useless, leading to a 'representative' democracy that is not entirely representative. In 2017, Greens and UKIP took around 3.5% of the vote. On that there should be around 20 green and ukip MPS. There is one. Yes democracy...

Edited by NWS at 11:55:14 on 13th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman13/6 12:29Thu Jun 13 12:29:17 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1316

“I don't disagree that Westminster is a more democratic body for the UK. That is obvious. It is entirely for the UK.” NWS

We don’t need to discuss this any more.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 20:23Thu Jun 13 20:23:17 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1205

So we've now moved to a different debate again. It seems to be the Baldman way. 'I'm getting hammered her so I'll change the debate and try and pretend to be victorious. Quite bizarre.

My comment was pertaining to the UK being insular. Your greater democracy for the UK is because it is within the UK without outside influence not that it is better democracy. However, as per usual you have wandered down the wrong path of thinking (well I say thinking but sometimes I wonder). If it insulates itself, I fear that the greater 'democracy' for the UK will be skewed by whatever means to a certain section of our society and that will not be a good thing. To paraphrase Orwell...All UK citizens will experience democracy but some will be experience more democracy than others.

BTW this is the second or third time you've decided* to leave it.

*I would have used the word elected but Baldman does not understand the meaning.

Edited by NWS at 20:27:48 on 13th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman13/6 23:41Thu Jun 13 23:41:11 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1159

What ARE you on about old boy?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Leeds Sandgrounder14/6 09:47Fri Jun 14 09:47:46 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1112

I think you've broken him a bit.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman14/6 09:51Fri Jun 14 09:51:50 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1108

Turing test fail.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 13:35Sat Jun 15 13:35:01 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1032

Oh dear more childish insults because you are getting it all wrong. I can now see that having misunderstood the word elect you are about to show a misunderstanding of the woRd choose.

Crack on

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS14/6 09:31Fri Jun 14 09:31:07 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1113

It's called a reply to what you wrote. I know you prefer to reply to something else then pretend to have gained some kind of victory. My victory is that you have completely avoided the actual meaning of the word 'elect' because you know that it will show my point to be correct and yours incorrect. The victory is all the greater because you are now reduced to attempted sarcasm to save face.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman14/6 09:35Fri Jun 14 09:35:01 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1113

“I don't disagree that Westminster is a more democratic body for the UK. That is obvious. It is entirely for the UK.” NWS

Isn’t that what we were discussing?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS14/6 09:39Fri Jun 14 09:39:27 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1102

No.

I was disputing your constant claims that the EU is not democratic and that the commission is unelected.

You just moved the debate elsewhere because I was asking what the word elect actually meant.

Now we're back. Care to tell me what the word elect actually means.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman14/6 09:43Fri Jun 14 09:43:59 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1108

I never said the EU is not democratic. I said it is a less democratic option for the U.K. than Westminster.

For reference, I also never used ‘unelected bureaucrats’ (except to get a rise) and never complained about the EIU ‘Head of State.’

You provided a definition of ‘elect.’ It’s a choice.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 13:23Sat Jun 15 13:23:45 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1033

When you say it is a less democratic option for the UK what do you mean exactly?

I note that having defended Meerkat's 'unelected bureaceats' position on several occasions you now opt to pretend it was just a joke. What a sad end to this debate for you.

Yes elect is a choice. Yesterday I was offered a cup of tea and elected to take up the offer. Are you saying my sentence is incorrect to use the word 'elect'.?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman15/6 15:52Sat Jun 15 15:52:59 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1020

When you say it is a less democratic option for the UK what do you mean exactly?

I could ask you the same old son.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 19:52Sat Jun 15 19:52:58 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 998

I don't. In fact, I'm sure I said the opposite and you got all excited a few posts ago. I merely point out that the EU commission is elected.

You chose not engage with the other bits to the post. This should mean you will be pretending it was all a wind up soon.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 19:43Sat Jun 15 19:43:49 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1002

I don't. In fact, I'm sure I said the opposite and you got all excited a few posts ago. I merely point out that the EU commission is elected.

You chose not engage with the other bits to the post. This should mean you will be pretending it was all a wind up soon.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman15/6 20:01Sat Jun 15 20:01:21 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 996

Oh. I may have misunderstood. What did you mean by this:

“I don't disagree that Westminster is a more democratic body for the UK. That is obvious. It is entirely for the UK.” NWS

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 20:04Sat Jun 15 20:04:54 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 997

I explained that when you commented last time.

I'm glad we agree that the commission is elected.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman15/6 20:14Sat Jun 15 20:14:39 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 993

You really didn’t. Not in any comprehensible way at least.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 20:17Sat Jun 15 20:17:31 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 989

I did. You just didn't comprehend.

At least I never avoided answering as you do.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman15/6 20:20Sat Jun 15 20:20:09 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 990

You perfectly reasonably agreed that Westminster is a more democratic institution for the U.K. than the EU is. It’s fine to do so, because it’s such an obvious point. And you were very clear in doing so, which I appreciated. But if you would like to withdraw that’s stayement then that is fine too.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 20:29Sat Jun 15 20:29:22 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 988

I did although I was trying to point out that you are comparing apples with bananas. That's why I am trying to fathom out what you mean. Westminster will offer more democracy within the UK because it is solely related to the UK. The EU covers a larger area that includes the UK. The UK being a subset.

Would you like to withdraw your ideas that the EC commission is not elected

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman15/6 20:57Sat Jun 15 20:57:59 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 986

That’s fine. Thats enough for me. We agree that Westminster offers more democracy for the U.K. by virtue of being smaller, more representative. Jolly good. So those Brexiteers who state that they want to end EU membership so that their leaders are more democratically accountable have a point. Whether it’s a material point is a different matter. But they’ve got a point.

The Commission is not elected. You may argue that the Parliament elects to rubber stamp the whole commission (at once, not individually), which I don’t disagree with. But it’s sophistry to therefore suggest that commissioners themselves are elected.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS16/6 18:14Sun Jun 16 18:14:21 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 870

Yes we agree that more democracy will be given by Westminster to the UK than by the EU by virtue of the UK being a subset of the UK and the EU dealing with a wider area. However, the brexiters chat breeze if they claim UK leaders will be more democratically accountable after brexit. Please tell me what democracy has been lost by UK leaders because of the EU.

Your second paragraph shows you just don't understand the word elect. Plain and simple.

On your point about the commission being elected as a whole. Commissioners are heavily vetted by MEPs and the EC council before they get to that stage. The UK government is appointed as a whole by the Prime Minister. You seem happy with this dictatorial approach yet dislike

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman16/6 19:07Sun Jun 16 19:07:31 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 861

“Please tell me what democracy has been lost by UK leaders because of the EU.”

If some of our laws are currently made in Europe (which I think we agree is the case) and we agree that Westminster is more democratically representative for the U.K (which I think we agree on) then there is no need for me to answer that question. Unless I’ve misunderstood it.

The U.K. executive is (generally) chosen from the pool of elected MPs. MEPs don’t form part of the EU executive.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 02:13Mon Jun 17 02:13:54 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 801

Yes. A ckear lack of understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty.

MPS are elected as MPs. If you cannot show me the voting paper where I was offered the chance to vote for a prime minister and or any member of the cabinet as well as my local MP then you point is invalid. How many people chose the EU executive and how many the UK executive?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 06:17Mon Jun 17 06:17:16 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 805

I think we are showing diminishing returns to argument. You won’t convince me that the EU executive is elected in any democratically meaningful sense. And I won’t be able to dissuade you from that notion.

But it hasn’t been wasted effort. We found agreement that Westminster is a more democratic body for the U.K. so the impact of our remaining disagreement is very limited.

In future, when a Brexiteer argues that Brexit is a good thing as it improves democratic accountability, we shall both just nod sagely.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 12:18Mon Jun 17 12:18:29 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 740

The doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty has always been in place so no democracy was lost to the EU (I think it is even mentioned in the first line of the Withdrawal Act). We may have well chosen not to challenge decisions they made (I would take you to the laws you spoke about and ask how many we actually challenged) and accepted them as a trade off for access to markets etc but at no point did the doctrine cease to exists. So, no Baldman, I will not 'nod sagely' I will simply correct their misunderstanding. When I say Westminster is a more democratic body for the UK that is because it is solely focused on the UK. You then confuse this with loss of sovereignty and democracy to the EU which is simply not true. Democratic accountability has not changed one iota through joining the EU. UK politicians have just pretended that to hide their own failings and the poor outcomes of their policies.


I have not argued about your feelings over 'democratically meaningful sense'. I happen to think you are wrong but that just boils down to opinion. It is the constant and ridiculous notion that a vote of 751 MEPs is not an election while the decision of just one person is an election that I argue about, particularly the first bit of that sentence because you are simply, technically wrong.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 12:22Mon Jun 17 12:22:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 739

What a wonderful piece of prose.

However, I never mentioned sovereignty. And I never said that MEPs were not elected.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 12:32Mon Jun 17 12:32:27 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 734

OMG give me strength. Be as insulting as you like but here we go.

In speaking about democracy you banged on specifically about laws and us accepting EU laws and that we had lost democracy because the EU was making some of our laws. Admittedly, I got the source wrong, as it wasn't the Withdrawal Act, it was the Brexit White Paper. It said

"Parliamentary sovereignty
2.1 The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that. The extent of EU activity relevant to the UK can be demonstrated by the fact that 1,056 EU-related documents were deposited for parliamentary scrutiny in 2016. These include proposals for EU Directives, Regulations, Decisions and Recommendations, as well as Commission delegated acts, and other documents such as Commission Communications, Reports and Opinions submitted to the Council, Court of Auditors Reports and more.
2.2 Leaving the EU will mean that our laws will be made in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and will be based on the specific interests and values of the UK. In chapter 1 we set out how the Great Repeal Bill will ensure that our legislatures and courts will be the final decision makers in our country."


It is in here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/589191/The_United_Kingdoms_exit_from_and_partnership_with_the_EU_Web.pdf

So, if you were not implying loss of democracy through loss of sovereignty about laws being made what were you on about when you were saying that we had loss democracy because the EU were making our laws?

If it helps your understanding I will say 'vote by 751 MEPs' rather than 'vote of 751 MEPs. Sorry for any misunderstanding by my use of the word 'of'.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 13:44Mon Jun 17 13:44:01 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 717

I wasn’t being insulting

“In speaking about democracy you banged on specifically about laws and us accepting EU laws and that we had lost democracy because the EU was making some of our laws.”

We agree that Westminster is a more democratic law making body for the U.K. than is the EU. During our membership of the EU certain of our laws originated in the EU. Therefore repatriating all law-making capacity to the U.K. would improve democratic accountability.

My last word on the other bit. If my wife says to me, ‘Darling Balders, I have made shepherds pie for tea. Would you like some?’ And I decide to eat some shepherds pie then I have ELECTED to have some shepherds pie. However, no election has been held. And the shepherds pie can not be said to have been elected. And this doesn’t change if my day job is working as an elected MP or as a part time window cleaner.

And if there is anyone mad enough to still be reading this except you and me, NWS, please excuse my poor use of apostrophe’s.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Lenny Baryea (MUFC)17/6 17:46Mon Jun 17 17:46:41 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 688

And if there is anyone mad enough to still be reading this except you and me, NWS, please excuse my poor use of apostrophe’s.

LOL

I'm craving shepherd's cottage pie now.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 17:58Mon Jun 17 17:58:27 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 681

Ha ha. You mean cottage’s

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 18:06Mon Jun 17 18:06:55 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 676

He did prove people were still mad enough to be reading though😂

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins17/6 14:41Mon Jun 17 14:41:26 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 706

I 'elected' to clean windows part time if that's any help, in so far as I had a choice of that, shop work on set times or humping roof tiles up a ladder, so as I say, I elected to clean windows.

We didn't have a vote on it though.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 17:13Mon Jun 17 17:13:57 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 691

So your election to be a window cleaner was akin to the Prime Minister choosing the UK cabinet. No vote.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins17/6 19:39Mon Jun 17 19:39:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 663

Yes but it wan't a real election, I didn't ballot myself, again it's a figure of speech to explain my deliberate choice of action from 3 options

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 14:06Mon Jun 17 14:06:47 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 713

Sorry but no. The laws originated in Europe but we chose to adopt them. The ultimate decision rested with our lawmakers through the doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty. By adopting the laws into our own they were, in effect deciding to make them. They could have refused. I don't disagree that would have been awkward but the choice was/is there. To that effect there is now lawmaking capacity to repatriate.


I did use a similar example to your pie analogy to emphasise the word choice. If we move to your election comments. Dictionaries will define (in one instance) as elect as to choose someone to office by voting. Regardless of your feelings around the system of voting and who did it you cannot claim that the commission was just slapped in place without a vote because there was a vote to specifically select the commission. The current government was chosen with no specific vote. There was a vote to select people to the office of MP but not to government. Furthermore, the last General election was in 2017. How many cabinet reshuffles have there been since then? You cannot even claim that during the general election we voted knowing who those people would be. Here in the SE I have 10 MEPs representing my voice in Europe. That is 10 out of 751 voices on the vote to elect the commission. I have 1 voice in the election of the new UK Prime Minister (and that is because I live in a Tory seat or I would have none). That does not sound like more democracy to me, however, if you feel no voice (as would occur in many constituencies) is greater democracy than some voices then I can only look on in bewilderment, wish you good bye from the remain side and hope all goes well with the madness of leave and it's ever-morphing explanations.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 14:18Mon Jun 17 14:18:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 711

Nope. EU Regulations do not need to be transcribed into national law, they apply immediately. EU Directives need to be transcribed into national law within 2 years (with some flexibility over means, but morning end). Neither are optional.

I am going to say this again. Every member of the cabinet has been elected*. If MEPs formed the EU executive, that would be the same level of democracy. They do not. So it’s not.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 17:12Mon Jun 17 17:12:14 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 696

OK. If you won't listen to me have a read of this. Maybe you can tell me what "Parliament is the supreme legal authority in the UK" means.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

You can keep saying it and I will keep pointing out that every member of the cabinet has been elected to be an MP not a government minister. They have been appointed to the cabinet position by the Prime Minister. I have asked, several times, where I vote for cabinet minister positions. You have yet to point me towards this.

I am pleased to see you have dropped the non-elected nonsense about the EU executive. That was my original complaint so we got there in the end. Now you can think what you like about choice by one person being better than choice by 751 people. Personally, I prefer that one person does not get all the say but if you like that kind of democracy you might wish to consider emigrating to that African state you were so keen to point me towards when you couldn't understand what election meant.

PS I could take leavers a little more seriously if 17.4m of them had ever bothered to vote in the EU elections to get a small piece of the democracy that doesn't exist (even though racist, homophobe, nige said he was preparing for a democratic election just before them)

Edited by NWS at 17:17:11 on 17th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 17:28Mon Jun 17 17:28:40 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 684

Have you read the link that you posted? Parliamentary sovereignty is always supreme. But we are not discussing sovereignty, we are discussing how laws are made. EU laws have application in the U.K. and the EU compels our Parliament to implement others.

An analogy. My boss tells me what to do. He bosses me around all day and I have to do whatever he says. Of course I can choose to resign at any time (and therefore I remain sovereign), but while I am employed he is the boss. The EU is the same.

I didn’t read the second section of your post. It seemed to be going over old ground where we disagree.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS17/6 18:29Mon Jun 17 18:29:54 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 683

Here we go again. Baldman is wrong so he tries to change the debate.

We were discussing democracy which is all about the right to choose. You started rattling on about democracy being passed to the EU away from our lawmakers because we had to abide by their laws. I merely pointed out that this was not true. The withdrawal act was passed by our Parliament and this, when/if it comes to fruition, sweeps away all the EU directives/laws in one go. This shows that while we may have chosen to trade some law making methods for single market membership etc we have, ultimately, retained the right to choose whether we do that or not. To that end not one iota of our democracy has been lost to the EU.

The analogy of your boss would work for you if he retained your right to choose to resign. Ultimately you retain the right to make your own decisions though so it doesn't.

You didn't wish to comment on the second half of my post because you have now agreed with me on my original complaint

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 20:08Mon Jun 17 20:08:37 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 660

Sovereignty was not permanently surrendered, it always stayed with the U.K. parliament. But law making powers passed to the EU.

Like how I have agreed to be subordinate to my boss until I resign.

It’s the perfect analogy.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 10:40Tue Jun 18 10:40:56 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 588

So no democracy was lost by our lawmakers because they chose to hand over some law making abilities. We always retained the right to choose.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman18/6 11:54Tue Jun 18 11:54:50 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 573

This is a very impressive sentence:

“So no democracy was lost by our lawmakers because they chose to hand over some law making abilities”

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat18/6 11:39Tue Jun 18 11:39:13 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 585

No we don’t.
We have the choice to accept EU law or leave......but the EU won’t actually let us leave.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 14:40Tue Jun 18 14:40:11 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 559

They gave us a withdrawal agreement and got agreement for it between 27 other countries. We then stumbled through an embarrassing spectacle of votes which saw the former Brexit secretary who negotiated the deal vote against it, people like JRM compare it to slavery and then vote for it and then vote against. The primary reason seemed to be an upset about a backstop that only a few months earlier the people complaining about it had told us it was easy to solve (or in Ester McVey's case still claim it is while simultaneously complainING about). We got towards the 31st March (you know...the date when the appeal against the fine for electoral fraud was quietly dropped) and we asked for an extension.

The EU hasn't stopped us leaving. We have stopped us leaving because people know how disastrous it will be for the majority. Still, maybe if the brexit hero takes over as unelected PM with no mandate he will grant you your wish. Let's see if he is as good as he says or is prepared to do what he says.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy18/6 13:15Tue Jun 18 13:15:15 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 567

So it's not the totally incompetent Tories being unable to come up with any form of coherent and acceptable plan to get out?

It's not even as if they are a minority government.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Nigel L18/6 12:19Tue Jun 18 12:19:13 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 572

No we don’t.
We have the choice to accept EU law or leave.


UK exporters will have absolutely no choice over accepting EU rules and regs if they want to continue selling their products and services into the EU Internal Market after Brexit.

And very little influence on how those rules and regulations will change over time or how they are applied.

A not insignificant example is GDPR.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat18/6 13:12Tue Jun 18 13:12:47 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 579

So no different from exporting any where else
And EU laws wouldn’t apply to the firms, just the exports intended for the EU

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Nigel L18/6 15:50Tue Jun 18 15:50:35 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 550

Repeating daft assertions do not make them true.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat18/6 16:25Tue Jun 18 16:25:23 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 542

Indeed, you should stop

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 14:44Tue Jun 18 14:44:00 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 559

What about imports. JRM has already said on live radio that he is happy to accept Australian standard beef. I found that strange considering his continual harping about us setting our own standards.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat18/6 15:19Tue Jun 18 15:19:22 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 553

To be pedantic that is setting our own standards

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 16:14Tue Jun 18 16:14:24 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 546

As has been signing EU treaties and asking for extensions to Article 50 so why are you making claims to the contrary

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy17/6 18:58Mon Jun 17 18:58:37 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 670

Is there a difference do you think between sovereignty and supremacy?

EU law is supreme, it takes precedence when there is conflict with national laws. To be in the EU means a nation accepts this supremacy.

Treaty of Lisbon 'in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law'

In accepting that supremacy a nation loses an element of its sovereignty, otherwise EU law could not be supreme.

EU law also allows the option to leave, taking that option was following supreme EU laws and not sovereign UK laws.


In representative democracies for every level of the governance system more direct democracy is lost, eg there is less weight to an individual's vote. Compare the number of people represented by an MP to those by an MEP, to me that is evidence that democracy is reduced.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 10:45Tue Jun 18 10:45:23 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 586

I disagree. We retain full sovereignty because we retain the right to choose our path.

If we follow your argument about layers of representation to its logical solution then you would end up with anarchy.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman18/6 16:22Tue Jun 18 16:22:50 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 545

I bet you have a great marriage NWS. Even though you signed up to the marriage contract, you are allowed to go out boozing every night. You can take drugs and spend all of the money you earn on yourself. You are free to chase women, and even shag them. You can bring them back to your house and let them stay overnight and even share breakfast with them in the morning, before shagging them again on the dirty table cloth.

Of course you are not actually allowed to do any of that stuff. But you retain the sovereign right to get divorced one day if you so choose.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS19/6 09:19Wed Jun 19 09:19:35 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 289

Indeed. Nice analogy :) :) :)

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy18/6 13:02Tue Jun 18 13:02:22 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 578

I'm sure we had to enact a bit of EU legislation to allow us to follow our own path, we couldn't enact UK legislation without doing so. Supremacy > sovereignty.



Well yes.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 14:46Tue Jun 18 14:46:10 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 557

Which bit of EU legislation are you referring to?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy18/6 15:35Tue Jun 18 15:35:52 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 546

Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union.

You could get in to a semantic argument about whether a treaty that defines EU law is actually legislation or not I suppose.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 16:12Tue Jun 18 16:12:15 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 545

Did we sign it?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy18/6 16:20Tue Jun 18 16:20:57 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 536

Do you not know?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 19:02Tue Jun 18 19:02:29 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 484

Your reply says it all. Your little exercise has failed and you are now going to try some game of semantics. We signed the treaty and agreed to something. We could have just ignored that and stopped everything dead but that would have been a) idiotic and b) dishonourable. Thus we stuck to what we agreed to. It's nothing to do with supremacy

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy18/6 20:12Tue Jun 18 20:12:46 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 461

Yes and part of what we'd agreed to was supremacy of EU law.
Hence not being able to enact our own sovereign law to leave, or we'd have the Brexit Means Brexit Act 2017.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS19/6 09:39Wed Jun 19 09:39:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 299

We can get rid of the European Communities Act from our own books and that is that. From there on in there is no supremacy of EU law because we don't recognise it.

Try this: https://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/12/article-50-teu-uses-and-abuses-of.html ...if you cannot be bothered to read far enough the bit you are interested in is:

"Two final points. First of all, it’s sometimes suggested that that the UK could ignore the Article 50 process, and simply leave the EU without invoking that clause. As a matter of domestic law, that’s certainly correct. Our membership of the EU depends upon the European Communities Act, and Parliament could end that membership by repealing that Act.

But politically and economically speaking, this option is insane. It would leave many practical details of withdrawing from the EU unresolved, such as payments of EU funds to UK recipients."



BEG MY PARDON BUT I WILL SHOUT THIS BIT OUT. OUR PARLIAMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN SOVEREIGN IT'S IN THE BREXIT WHITE PAPER.

Edited by NWS at 10:14:09 on 19th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By skippy19/6 15:55Wed Jun 19 15:55:38 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 234

The Act that gives EU law supremacy over UK law but apparently has in no way reduced the sovereignty of UK law and did not cede some law making decisions to the ECJ.

You can shout and scream all you like but that will not convince me that the UK has the same sovereignty over its laws be it inside or outside the EU, particularly not when we have an act ceding supremacy to the EU.

My understanding is that attempting to repeal the ECA without going through the Article 50 process might put the UK in a situation where they may be in breach of their obligations under EU law to comply with the aims of the various treaties. Any potential legal dispute arising from this would then presumably be presided over by the ECJ rather than the Supreme Court.

Mine wasn't a yes/no question it was a more/less question, you have chosen to answer it as a yes/no question.

We may have sovereignty but we don't have supremacy, leave the EU and we have supremacy of our laws as well.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS19/6 18:34Wed Jun 19 18:34:43 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 197

OK. I can only present you with facts. If facts are not good enough to alter an opinion then so be it. You will keep ploughing on with an opinion that will eventually dash against the cold hard rocks of fact and shatter into pieces.

I will plop it alongside the current vogue of 'tech solutions to the Irish border' and 'GATT 24'

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Slim Jim19/6 18:50Wed Jun 19 18:50:52 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 180

Do we have an arbiter of Lutonfacts, or do is it down to individual interpretation?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman18/6 11:55Tue Jun 18 11:55:52 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 580

Don’t tempt him

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Rob (Alice Glass)17/6 18:34Mon Jun 17 18:34:43 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 683

Can you two hurry up with the foreplay, decide who's Arthur and who's Martha and get on with fucking.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS18/6 10:46Tue Jun 18 10:46:24 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 578

Sorry, if you are getting over-excited at the prospect and impatient, my little voyeur

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman17/6 20:12Mon Jun 17 20:12:47 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 655

I’d like to think I’m Arthur. But even being Martha would be less painful.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 20:48Thu Jun 13 20:48:44 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1172

* It would work there but only as a figure of speech or as a phrase.

Which isn't its meaning as a verb.

Waits for Greek Card to come correct my sorry *rse

Edited by joe hawkins at 20:49:37 on 13th June 2019

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS14/6 09:28Fri Jun 14 09:28:08 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1113

Allow me to save GC the bother

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/elect

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman14/6 09:41Fri Jun 14 09:41:46 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1101

‘Choose’ surely implies a choice of more than one alternative.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS15/6 13:17Sat Jun 15 13:17:21 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1027

So if I offered you a food that you were allergic to you would have to eat it because there was no other choice?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Pol Pot13/6 13:11Thu Jun 13 13:11:16 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1293

Not so fast, Baldman. This is the internet. Nobody ever wins a debate. It is two sides hurling cherry-picked facts at each other for eternity.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 20:09Thu Jun 13 20:09:00 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1196

Or in Baldman's case just change the point being debated and claim a victory. Hilarious.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 12:34Thu Jun 13 12:34:25 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1311

I enjoyed the 'diatribe' bit with a fair bit of mirth myself, all the references to different people and groups are a bit much for my council estate addled brain so I read along nodding and smiling at all the good bits.

It's quite cathartic....

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS13/6 20:23Thu Jun 13 20:23:48 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1177

I was brought up on a council house estate

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Joe Hawkins13/6 20:42Thu Jun 13 20:42:00 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1172

Oh I wasn't, but hung out on a few in my youth, I ended up inheriting the ex's tenancy where I live now, 6 council houses left out of 24.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS14/6 09:32Fri Jun 14 09:32:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1104

So you claim council house when you ain't even kosha stock bruv. Pathetic.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Donnacha NaBriosca (Duncan Biscuit)13/6 06:18Thu Jun 13 06:18:05 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1358

Your last opportunity to directly vote for our Head of State was in 1689.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Greek Card12/6 15:17Wed Jun 12 15:17:55 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1469

If the PM just paid no attention to whether someone was an elected MP or not when choosing his or her cabinet the country would probably be a lot better run than it is.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 16:10Wed Jun 12 16:10:51 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1453

As long as the alternative wasn’t from the Lords.

The US government runs like that, doesn’t it?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 16:22Wed Jun 12 16:22:27 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1454

Aaaahhh...the Lords...the UK government is just a bunch of unelected bureaucrats.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Slim Jim12/6 14:23Wed Jun 12 14:23:28 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1483

Does it really matter if the Commission is elected?

As I understand it, the Council of Ministers decided which way the EU was heading. The Commission then proposed laws that sought to achieve this. These proposals were debated, amended, approved, rejected by the EU Parliament (those that turn up - thinking of you, Mr Farage), with the Council members having the power to veto stuff.

Aren't the Commission akin to our own Civil Service, who aren't elected? No-one seems to complain about their influence.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 16:07Wed Jun 12 16:07:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1448

Surely you are not saying that power is wielded by national governments (elected in the way Mr Baldman likes) and MEPs (elected in the way Mr Baldman likes). Why that would be two directly elected sets of people highly influential in running the EU Vs one. We can balance the EU (unelected even though they are elected) commission with the House of Lords (he seems to have missed that out. Jesus...the EU is more democratic than the UK. Who would have thought ol' Farage would have lied to get his money making scheme through. Yes, Nige, the man that's never got elected (failed every time) and his parties have only managed one elected MP is (or is it two) but demands a seat at the top table for negotiation. Democracy, eh?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Baldman12/6 14:32Wed Jun 12 14:32:02 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1481

The Commission is the executive. It is the primary law making body and proposes all legislation and the EU budget.

The Parliament is the legislature. It debates, fine tunes and approves the legislation and approves the budget.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By NWS12/6 16:07Wed Jun 12 16:07:39 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1452

How does the Parliament approve the budget etc?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Denzzel (denzel ecfc)11/6 10:16Tue Jun 11 10:16:20 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1845

Can't see them doing anything else except voting in Boris. The best one for winning those back who have gone to the Brexit Party.

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By ExLandlord (HUFC)11/6 10:14Tue Jun 11 10:14:51 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1854

When did they ever take any notice of what the public think?

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By Meerkat11/6 10:17Tue Jun 11 10:17:41 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1862

All the time - it’s why they keep reducing, or appearing to reduce, taxes, and why they won’t increase tax on fuel and shit food like they really should

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Re: This Tory leadership contest

By DesCartes11/6 15:03Tue Jun 11 15:03:25 2019In response to Re: This Tory leadership contestTop of thread

Views: 1739

The Tories don't. It's why they keep reducing. Full stop / period

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