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It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS15/10 10:36Thu Oct 15 10:36:56 2020

Views: 1173

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-arms-dealer-military-middle-east-saudi-arabia-turkey-oman-qatar-b841746.html?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1602025530

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 10:39Thu Oct 15 10:39:30 2020In response to It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 1010

Do you think that we should have an army, a navy and an airforce?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS15/10 12:01Thu Oct 15 12:01:03 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 876

Yes

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By skippy15/10 11:51Thu Oct 15 11:51:44 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 905

How does arming religious nutters in the Middle East provide the UK with an army, navy and airforce?

The Saudis spend more on imported arms than the UK spends on it's entire defence.
Thanks to our special influence though only a reasonable portion of those arms filter their way to terrorist groups.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By MattA18/10 02:03Sun Oct 18 02:03:42 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 167

It is an outsourcing or regional proxy.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By UkrainianPhil (UkrainianPhil (YCFC))17/10 17:48Sat Oct 17 17:48:20 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 287

We could save a fortune if we gave Gibraltar, North Ireland and the Malvinas back to their proper owners.

Plus that island we got done in the UN for recently.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Kanu's Nan (KN Version 2)18/10 10:16Sun Oct 18 10:16:20 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 141

We?
Aren’t you Ukrainian?

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FAO Baldman

By NWS18/10 12:18Sun Oct 18 12:18:21 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 110

Please note I have ignored him

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Re: FAO Baldman

By TomMc (D&R)18/10 12:50Sun Oct 18 12:50:33 2020In response to FAO BaldmanTop of thread

Views: 105

KN wasn't talking to you?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Meerkat17/10 17:55Sat Oct 17 17:55:01 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 269

If Spain and Argentina had really wanted them they would have fought a bit harder for them

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 19:57Sat Oct 17 19:57:35 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 252

Well we seem quite happy to lose Northern Ireland...

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Meerkat17/10 20:39Sat Oct 17 20:39:02 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 236

If the residents so wish (not that I have that much sympathy for the unionists, who’s forefathers caused all the bother by being arseholes).
The residents of the Falklands and Gibraltar have made it very very clear they don’t want to lose their current status.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 21:59Sat Oct 17 21:59:19 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 195

I wasn't talking about the residents wishes. I was referring to the attitudes of many here

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Meerkat18/10 08:52Sun Oct 18 08:52:41 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 150

I would be happy to lose Northern Ireland, make it someone else’s problem, because they are just a bunch of arses that cost us a lot of money.
So as soon as the papists outbreed the Protestants then they are welcome to go.

The number of Protestants in NI roughly equals the number of papists in Scotland........just saying.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS18/10 09:38Sun Oct 18 09:38:20 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 151

So protecting borders is in fact losing part of the much vaunted union. Hilarious.

#takingbackcontrol

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Meerkat18/10 10:09Sun Oct 18 10:09:25 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 139

WTF? You really are weird.
You asked if I was worried about losing NI so I answered that question. Then you make some random Brexit association.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS18/10 12:13Sun Oct 18 12:13:16 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 108

Weird. It could be worse. I could believe ANPR cameras will solve things

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Duncan Biscuit18/10 10:13Sun Oct 18 10:13:42 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 137

*pulls up chair, puts feet up*

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Auto Pol (Baldman)18/10 10:15Sun Oct 18 10:15:37 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 127

Me too. Then...

**puts neck through noose. Kicks away chair**

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS18/10 12:17Sun Oct 18 12:17:03 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 102

You might want to think about how the EU delays thing to present deals to 27 countries for a democratic decision while our 'government' voted to sideline Parliamentary scrutiny.

#Parliamentarysovereigntyanddemocracy

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 12:11Thu Oct 15 12:11:35 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 853

It doesn’t. I was trying to establish the basis for disagreeing with flogging arms. So, we all agree that arms are ok to make and presumably that other countries have a right to defense, therefore export sales are legit. If so, then we should be proud that we excel in this legitimate industry.

But you are overlaying either morality or strategy. I’ll take strategy first.. is it in our strategic interests to sell to the Saudis? Well, they are our allies and they have loads of oil so I guess it is.

So we are down to morality... You have three points in your post.... they have lots of weapons. I don’t see that as a barrier to selling arms to them (they live in a dangerous region and don’t have nukes).

They are religious nutters... I don’t have a moral problem with selling to people of all religions no matter how ardent.

Some weapons find their way into the hands of terrorists. Well, one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. I don’t think we can morally judge every armed conflict on the planet and take a side on a moral basis.

So if the Saudis are our allies, and one has accepted that the arms business is legitimate, then it’s tough to make a case why not to sell to them unless there is a strategic reason not to.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 00:27Sat Oct 17 00:27:44 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 357

Would you find it acceptable if Saudi-funded terrorist's blew your family up?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By skippy15/10 14:01Thu Oct 15 14:01:36 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 754

I don't agree that it is ok to make any arms, some including cluster type munitions shouldn't be made. Type is as important as quantity.
There is a difference between sufficient arms for defence and increasing your arms to be offensive. Saudi arms imports are of a scale their armed forces would need to be the size of Russia for it to be proportional. Strategically for oil security we should be sucking up to Venezuela, although given the energy transition sucking up to oil producing nations will become increasingly pointless.

The arms industry is one of the most corrupt industries on the planet, it has the veneer of legitimacy.

The Shah of Iran was our ally, what happened to all of those lovely fighter planes after we flogged them to him? Today's ally may be tomorrow's enemy. That's the problem with supporting repressive regimes, your mate may lose control and how happy are the new nutters that you supported the previous nutter? Not very has been the answer every time. Strategically you arm people just enough anything above that level is asking for trouble.

Another problem is when British weapons end up in the hands of terrorists sooner or later those weapons take British lives. You sell weapons to a country you know will pass a reasonable proportion of those weapons to terrorists that will kill British soldiers. To use your car manufacturer analogy, how would it be if they only sold cars to reckless drunks? That is what we are doing.

We have got involved in many conflicts to bring/ensure democracy, why bother when we are happy to support oppressive regimes.



Corkscrew logic from strategy to morality.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 14:20Thu Oct 15 14:20:11 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 720

I don't agree that it is ok to make any arms, some including cluster type munitions shouldn't be made. Type is as important as quantity.

Agreed

There is a difference between sufficient arms for defence and increasing your arms to be offensive. Saudi arms imports are of a scale their armed forces would need to be the size of Russia for it to be proportional.

That's not really a cut and dried distinction though, is it? Can you judge that with any sort of accuracy? Has Saudi been involved in many expansionary wars?

Strategically for oil security we should be sucking up to Venezuela Yes, and Russia, but our biggest ally is the USA so this won't fly.

Strategically you arm people just enough anything above that level is asking for trouble. In an ideal world perhaps, but if we refuse to arm the Saudis, someone else will. So I'm not sure that should drive your export policy. Also, will 'just enough' stop some arms reaching terrorists?

We have got involved in many conflicts to bring/ensure democracy, why bother when we are happy to support oppressive regimes. Have we? Really? I know that's what we say we are doing, but outside of Europe, why are those places always in the middle east? Why didn't we protect Ukraine? We don't we care about the DRC? Or South Sudan?

I think there are only really two coherent positions on this... against all arms exports or you accept that arms exports to allies are part of the whole International Relations game.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By skippy15/10 18:50Thu Oct 15 18:50:17 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 606

That's not really a cut and dried distinction though, is it? Can you judge that with any sort of accuracy?

For some countries it might not be easy to judge, but when a state spends 25% of it's budget on arms it gives you some clue. There are several organisations that evaluate these things.

Has Saudi been involved in many expansionary wars?

SA isn't after territory, they seek to export their ideology/destabilise their neighbours, hence many arms end up in the hands of terrorist groups.

our biggest ally is the USA so this won't fly

Must maintain the special relationship.

if we refuse to arm the Saudis, someone else will.

Did you used to work for DESO? Nothing wrong with supplying a need (aka the drug dealer argument).

I know that's what we say we are doing

Saying one thing and doing another just adds to the air of legitimacy doesn't it.

you accept that arms exports to allies are part of the whole International Relations game

So is picking your allies in the first place, and understanding when that relationship has changed.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 19:56Thu Oct 15 19:56:48 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 577

Ok so we agree that our claims to want to bring freedom to places is a fig leaf, hence your point falls away.

The fact that other people will arm Saudi anyway doesn’t make it right, but it does mean that your point about British arms falling into the hands of terrorists is moot. And in reality most terrorists don’t fire SA80s and fly Typhoons around the place. Saudi has petrodollars. Whether we sell them arms doesn’t change anything.

This is why I find your argument confusing.’

Is your argument based on morality? In which case any and all arms sales to SA should be against your principles.

Or is it strategic? In which case arguing for some kind of ‘defence only’ limit seems a bit pointless as we can agree that they’ll get the arms from other sources.


And:
Must maintain the special relationship. Well yes. In a unipolar world we must all pay fealty to the superpower. Only China is strong enough not to. I wish it weren’t so, but there’s no point pretending it isn’t.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By skippy16/10 18:58Fri Oct 16 18:58:17 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 440

Not sure agreeing that our claims are hypocritical somehow reduces the point the industry has the veneer of legitimacy.

Repeating the drug dealer argument does not make it more valid as a strategy.

Of the 1,300 or so arms export licences how many are actually for SA80s or Typhoons*?

There are 22 licences for miscellaneous containers for explosives, 16 licences for explosives, 18 licences for military equipment for initiating explosives. What do you need to make an IED? Well lets see you need a suitable container, explosives and a means of detonating it. In reality most injuries to British troops have been from IEDs. As far as can be determined we are their largest supplier of these items. But according to you we only sell Typhoons and SA80s so no bother there lads.

My argument is strategic, moral and economic there is no 'or'.

In a unipolar world we must all pay fealty to the superpower. Only China is strong enough not to.

This is correct if you ignore the various countries within the non-alignment movement, there's only 120 of them, easy to miss. Venezuela is one of them. Oddly Venezuela is also one of the 20 or so countries on the UK arms embargo list.







*this may be a bit of a trick question but I look forward to your answer.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman16/10 22:28Fri Oct 16 22:28:24 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 381

My argument is strategic, moral and economic there is no 'or'..

Edit: I did previously ask you some questions, but I think it’s easier if I just tell you what I think about this.

You can either have a moral problem with arms sales. That’s a coherent position. You don’t like arms sales, fine.

Or you can have a strategic problem with how we do it. Which would be ‘we shouldn’t sell arms to SA because they are Evans.” Again, fine.

Or you can have a economic argument... “to maximise profit we should sell to Iran, not SA.”

But as I understand your argument it is.

You don’t think the arms trade is legitimate but you think it should continue
We should sell arms to SA, but not too many and nothing that may be used against British troops
We should sell arms to Venezuela, despite the fact it would piss off our best ally
We should maximise profits from arms sales.

I’m not trying to be facetious, I just really don’t get your position.

Edited by Baldman at 23:46:38 on 16th October 2020

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By skippy17/10 09:51Sat Oct 17 09:51:08 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 313

Well you asked questions then filled in my answers for me.
I think some of your failure to understand my arguments is that you don't actually know enough about the UK arms export industry, as demonstrated by your comment on Typhoons etc

Arms sales cover a myriad of different things, including bomb detection and clearance equipment and other things that are dual use.
I'm against people flogging bombs, I'm not against people flogging bomb detection equipment. Therefor having a blanket stance against arms exports would prevent the sale of life saving non-offensive equipment.
It is about what is produced, who it is sold to and how it is used. This is recognised within the ATT.
Thankfully the UN are less confused by this than you.

Hence strategic and moral with none of the 'or' you seem to insist must be there.

In addition to those I also have an economic argument. There can be more than one thing wrong with something.

Or you can have a economic argument... “to maximise profit we should sell to Iran, not SA.”

That is not the economic argument., which again demonstrates to me you don't know enough about the UK arms export industry. The economic argument is the cost to the UK tax payer to provide profits to private arms companies. The UK tax payer spends a lot of money to be 'safe' but in some respects it also pays a lot of money that ends up having a negative effect on that safety.
And that's without delving into the export credit guarantee schemes and the fines when we get caught bribing Arabs.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman17/10 15:12Sat Oct 17 15:12:33 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 270

I don’t claim to be an expert in the U.K. arms trade, I’m trying to understand the principles behind your position.

So it’s not the quantity of arms sold to SA that’s the problem. It’s the type of ‘arms’. That’s where I got confused perhaps from your earlier posts.

You make a moral distinction between life saving non offensive equipment and life taking equipment. That is a more coherent position but I disagree with it, as I think a legitimate part of defence is deterrence.

Yours is a moral position within which you might have some room to pursue economic or strategic objectives. But it’s primarily moral.

On your last paragraph, I think we can agree on a couple of things.

- if an arms export order increases the risk of harm to significant numbers of British citizens you shouldn’t do it.
- if an arms export order is more costly to the taxpayer than the benefit it brings to the country, you shouldn’t do it

So if you can meet those two conditions and don’t produce cluster bonds, land mines etc, and you only export to those to whom it is in your strategic interest to do so, I say go for it.

I think the difference between us is that you would only sell defensive stuff, while I would sell typhoons and missiles to anyone as long as it meets the above tests.

Edited by Baldman at 15:13:02 on 17th October 2020

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By skippy17/10 17:32Sat Oct 17 17:32:32 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 263

if an arms export order increases the risk of harm to significant numbers of British citizens you shouldn’t do it.

Your ally today may be your enemy tomorrow. I don't believe that can be determined with any reasonable certainty. You are clearly confident it can despite historical evidence to the contrary. But I'm sure you were confident when you voted for Boris he would get it done and wouldn't be a complete fucking shambles.

- if an arms export order is more costly to the taxpayer than the benefit it brings to the country, you shouldn’t do it

How do you determine benefit? If you look at purely tax dollars in/tax dollars out then a lot of arms sales would cease, but they are supported because of the claimed benefits of influence, co-operation, security etc.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Auto Pol (Baldman)17/10 18:08Sat Oct 17 18:08:03 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 235

Your ally today may be your enemy tomorrow.

Which would be part of the calculation.

. Boris he would get it done and wouldn't be a complete fucking shambles.

I thought he’s get It done, which he did. Sadly I also thought he would be a complete shambles.

How do you determine benefit?

As you say you would have to take into account all elements you mention, plus jobs, the ability to build more of our own arms, spin off technologies etc etc.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS15/10 12:17Thu Oct 15 12:17:57 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 825

Do you think there is ever a justification for killing unarmed children, who are just going about their normal day?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Ich bin16/10 19:09Fri Oct 16 19:09:21 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 434

Armed or unarmed, who gives a shit. Just remember one thing, all terrorists
and other assorted criminals were children once.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 00:17Sat Oct 17 00:17:12 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 348

As were/are you

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 12:22Thu Oct 15 12:22:58 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 815

Civilian casualties are an unfortunate and tragic side effect of conflicts in which arms are used.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS15/10 12:31Thu Oct 15 12:31:36 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 795

Like, Mr Johnson, you failed to answer the question.

Try this question.

Are you in support of supplying weapons for a country to go to another and routinely bomb unarmed children? If you are in support, are you happy to pay funds in to support this?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 12:36Thu Oct 15 12:36:44 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 800

It's a false question. It's like asking a car manufacturer if he supports babies being crushed under the wheels of a car driven by a drunk driver. Of course he doesn't, but he knows that some people will use his products recklessly.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 00:16Sat Oct 17 00:16:19 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 350

So again you wimp out of answering.

If I sell a car to a person who regularly drink drives then I can believe there is a much higher chance that the car will be involved in a drink/drive incident.

Just to point out, I asked if you support sales of arms and are willing to fund such things (i.e. Through tax breaks) not if you would actually make the sales.

You are welcome to answer any of my three questions. After all I answered yours. It does seem you gabble on about supporting jobs and dealing with customers etc but don't want to take responsibility for the end result of your actions.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman17/10 00:24Sat Oct 17 00:24:49 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 365

I’m drunk now and don’t hold you in that very esteem, but I will try because it’s a difficult question, and those are the most interesting

I support arms sales
I don’t support tax breaks to arms sellers
I don’t know what the third question was

I would work for an arms producer if I had no other option, but I would always look for another job.

I don’t support war, and I would refuse to be drafted I would work as a stretcher bearer but the Idea of it terrifies me

Pick the bones out of that lot

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 00:32Sat Oct 17 00:32:44 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 349

I'm not drunk and have the same opinion of you.

Again, you didn't answer the questions asked, instead giving some generic answers that will put in better light than you have so far appeared.

Given your support of arms sales to Saudi Arabia, would you be happy if Saudi funded terrorist blew your family up with British weaponary?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Leeds Sandgrounder17/10 00:44Sat Oct 17 00:44:44 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 364

I don't want to put words in dear old Balders' mouth, but I don't think he would be happy if his family was blown up.

Do you ever read things you've posted back?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 19:56Sat Oct 17 19:56:30 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 242

He think it's just an unfortunate side effect of things for others if you read above.

Do you ever read the things that have been written before offering a pre-decided answer? Oh sorry, I forgot. You are pro-Saudi bombing as well. Maybe I could ask the same question of you.

You think selling the means to blow up the families of others is OK but get all a bit tetchy if someone even asks about how you would feel if it were done to you.

Double standards.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Leeds Sandgrounder17/10 20:17Sat Oct 17 20:17:52 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 232

I stand corrected - Baldman would be happy if his family were blown up. I would be fine with it happening to my family also.

I fucking love Saudi bombing, I think it is really good. I also think it is good that we sell them the arms. I am getting a bit tetchy now this has been pointed out.

NWS is the best person on this board, and is the only person with any sort of morality - it is good of him to try and help us become better people.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 22:00Sat Oct 17 22:00:40 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 191

I love it. The sarcasm is your last refuge because the hypocrisy has been called out.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Leeds Sandgrounder17/10 22:04Sat Oct 17 22:04:08 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 195

NWS is right again. The sarcasm is my last refuge because the hypocrisy has been called out.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By NWS17/10 23:32Sat Oct 17 23:32:59 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 172

Good one

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Leeds Sandgrounder17/10 23:44Sat Oct 17 23:44:20 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 171

Would you like some Mini Cheddars?

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Bullsgold15/10 20:04Thu Oct 15 20:04:53 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 553

Surely the use of any weapon is pretty reckless at any time? The use of a car is not reckless as standard.

Weapon. Reckless as standard. Can be used for good reason.
Car. Generally used for good reason. Can be used recklessly.

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Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...

By Baldman15/10 20:14Thu Oct 15 20:14:22 2020In response to Re: It makes you feel proud to be British...Top of thread

Views: 547

Possibly.

It depends whether you accept the legitimacy of countries having an army, navy etc. If you do then the use of weapons is legitimate and civilian casualties are similar to victims of drunk drivers. An inevitable consequence of the use of your product.

If you are a pacifist and disagree with weapons overall (or a crazed, car-hating Mamil) then that’s different.

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