ContinueWe use cookies to ensure that you get the best experience on our website; if you continue without changing your settings - or dismiss this message - we'll assume that you are happy to receive all cookies on www.theconferenceforum.co.uk

The Conference Forum

Return to front page

Newest article: Re: Restart Grants by DesCartesToday 18:40Today at 18:40:52view thread

Oldest article: Daily Brexit Bonus by cufc infinity1/4 15:04Thu Apr 1 15:04:43 2021view thread

MenuSearch

Next thread: Colchester Utd statement lolz by Tottenham Womble8/4 23:17Thu Apr 8 23:17:20 2021view thread

Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By interserie7/4 17:00Wed Apr 7 17:00:02 2021

Views: 884

There have been repeated rumblings in the press of possible problems for Labour in the forthcoming Hartlepool Parliamentary by-election (May 6). Local polling by Survation last week gives the Tories a 7 point lead over Labour which if reflected on the day would see the seat turn blue for the first time since it came into existence in 1974.

What was a surprise was the reported comment of someone in the Labour campaign that if they did lose the seat it would be because of the absence of the Brexit Party (who polled over 10,600 votes in 2019).

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By NWS7/4 20:36Wed Apr 7 20:36:41 2021In response to Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 538

We will fight the Tories in Swalecliffe

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By DesCartes7/4 19:42Wed Apr 7 19:42:41 2021In response to Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 588

Many voters seduced, by a successful vaccination programme, into thinking - wrongly - that the Government have done a good job managing the pandemic.

A large number of them oblivious to the horrors of the post hard Brexit shitshow which many of them voted for - not something that the majority of the MSM is going to be open / honest about.

All of which makes it difficult for Starmer to 'cut through'. Not that he would necessarily be the man who can do that; I'm increasingly doubting it.

Depressing times we live in, but the day of reckoning will come....

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Nigel L8/4 08:31Thu Apr 8 08:31:50 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 349

That comes across as a wee bit cynical Des. Unquestionably the Labour brand has been badly tarnished in Red Wall seats by the shenanigans of local politicians and a succession of party leaders that didn't chime with the culture and priorities of the voters. See Scotland for a previous example of this.

Starmer's makeover thus far has hardly scratched the surface of this major credibility issue. Clamping down on anti-semitism, while absolutely necessary, won't sway too many votes in Labour's direction in places like Hartlepool. Meanwhile those voters are still inclined to give the Tories a chance to show they can better address their concerns.

Starmer, indeed any Labour leader, must continue steadily reshaping the party to turn it into a credible option to govern this country, all the while hoping that Johnson's serial weaknesses will speed up the process. I think it will be a long haul and the Hartlepool result will merely highlight how much work needs to be done.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By DarrenG WFC8/4 08:36Thu Apr 8 08:36:22 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 332

The big problem with Johnson's serial weaknesses is they can be easily solved by changing the party leader*. The Tories won't hesitate to do this if they think Johnson has become an electoral liability (and he will).





*Not withstanding any issues of there actually being anyone better in the party.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Nigel L8/4 08:51Thu Apr 8 08:51:41 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 341

That's actually a weakness. Johnson's purge of dissenting voices in the Parliamentary party coupled with the Momentum-style takeover of moribund constituency associations by Farageists means the Tory Party has become a nationalist populist movement incapable of changing its current trajectory.

Sooner or later the wider electorate will tire of constant culture wars, blatant cronyism, Union Flags everywhere etc, and look favourably on an electoral offering that promotes competence and a lot less noise.

Fighting wars all the time is wearing, as US voters pointed out last November.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 08:57Thu Apr 8 08:57:37 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 327

Sooner or later the wider electorate will tire of constant culture wars, blatant cronyism, Union Flags everywhere

The culture wars come from the left, cronyism is rife in the union/labour link, and why would the British people get tired of their flag? The vast majority like seeing it or barely notice, only the lefty loons get their knickers in a twist about it.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Nigel L8/4 09:26Thu Apr 8 09:26:59 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 314

Culture warriors come from both extremes, as you know well. The Union Flag thing is just a cypher for the Tories to yet again claim they are the only patriotic party, which is utter nonsense. Traditionally many Brits have preferred taking quiet pride in their country's achievements, not ostentatious displays of flag waving favoured in the main by pretty nasty autocratic regimes. I grant you France and the US are exceptions to this rule, but we are neither French nor American.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 09:32Thu Apr 8 09:32:01 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 311

To which 'ostentatious displays of flag waving' are you referring?
It isnt just France and America that have their flags all over the place - its pretty normal.
And you arent dim so I assume that you realise that much of the current use of the flag by government is retaliation against SNP (party and supporters) Saltire waving - showing how much is done by UKG, learnt from the EU who made sure their flag got around as much as possible and was on everything they funded.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Nigel L8/4 09:48Thu Apr 8 09:48:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 300

I'm not in favour of of politicians purloining national symbols for party political ends. It cheapens the symbol and is normally a giveaway the same politicians are trying to distract us from what they are up to elsewhere. Clearly you think differently when it's your party that is doing it. Fair enough, but I don't agree with it.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 10:07Thu Apr 8 10:07:24 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 300

So you don’t have examples of “ostentatious flag waving” then?
Are you mixing up politicians purloining national symbols with members of the UKG sitting in front of the UK flag?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Nigel L8/4 11:30Thu Apr 8 11:30:16 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 285

Seems that Boris sticking it to the SNP by waving the Union Flag around is having the desired effect.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 11:59Thu Apr 8 11:59:31 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 276

Does that mean 46% for Indy parties in Holyrood?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Nigel L8/4 12:43Thu Apr 8 12:43:56 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 256

This poll says the SNP would get a majority in Holyrood on constituency votes alone. Any seats they get through the list element presumably would be a bonus (I don't know the full workings of that element of the electoral system and have no plans to find out).

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:01Thu Apr 8 13:01:26 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 241

Oh, I see. Cheers

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Howard RMI7/4 21:31Wed Apr 7 21:31:07 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 485

Hope it is not on a Monday. I don't like Mondays.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By uptheshots (uptheshots)7/4 19:48Wed Apr 7 19:48:07 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 564

When will the day of reckoning come?

Can we fast forward to this day?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By DesCartes7/4 20:01Wed Apr 7 20:01:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 548

When the pandemic has a lower profile in the news, the economy has a higher one again and the public inquiry is underway....

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Shanghai7/4 21:28Wed Apr 7 21:28:52 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 491

No chance the public will give a toss about a public inquiry after hearing about the pandemic not stop for years and years. Everyone (apart from twitter oddballs) will be enjoying life, not worrying about whether Cheltenham 2020 should have been postponed. We'll be enjoying the record economic recovery after a few pints of lager with our pals in the sun.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By DesCartes7/4 22:03Wed Apr 7 22:03:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 477

'Regional finalist, Daily Express-sponsored 2021 Gammon Awards,' Most Promising Junior' Category'.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Shanghai8/4 09:28Thu Apr 8 09:28:09 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 301

My grandad worked for the express so I am overwhelmed by this nomination.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Bork8/4 00:16Thu Apr 8 00:16:52 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 404

lol. Although it was a minor lol, it got a lol nonetheless.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By DesCartes8/4 08:24Thu Apr 8 08:24:58 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 331

I can live with a 'minor lol'.

In these difficult times, I will dine out on a 'minor lol'.

Oh, hang on...

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 22:05Wed Apr 7 22:05:06 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 463

He's probably right unfortunately. Everything will carry on getting slightly shitter.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By NWS8/4 14:30Thu Apr 8 14:30:21 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 201

The Labour Party should consider building pacts where doing so will rid us of a Tory, rather than the current BBB approach of refusing to deal and stealing just enough votes off a credible challenger to send them into second place. It would work both ways (as a pact does)

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Bullsgold8/4 07:02Thu Apr 8 07:02:42 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 358

Spot on. Although it's probably best not to think about it first thing in the morning.

Anyway, cheer up, Pound shops open next week. In fact, I think they may have been open already so we have absolutely nothing to complain about!

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 20:07Wed Apr 7 20:07:11 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 518

They'll find some other shite to distract everyone with. They always do.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By uptheshots (uptheshots)7/4 17:52Wed Apr 7 17:52:28 2021In response to Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 697

How are you surprised by this? Look at the sort of moronic racist cunts that generally voted for the brexit party.

Who are the majority of them going to vote for with no brexit party around? It’s not rocket science is it?

4 letters long starts with a t and ends with a y

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Trac - yet another Wood fan7/4 18:06Wed Apr 7 18:06:09 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 669

Indeed.

The question is, who did they vote for before voting UKIP / Brexit etc?

It wasn't liberal and it wasn't tory.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Noodles (southampton)7/4 18:28Wed Apr 7 18:28:01 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 638

Should Labour be criticised for not winning the racist vote?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman7/4 19:26Wed Apr 7 19:26:37 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 564

No way. Labour should keep their ideological purity and try to maximise their student vote.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Trac - yet another Wood fan7/4 18:42Wed Apr 7 18:42:25 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 600

I think they used to win a lot more of it than they do now.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Greek Card7/4 18:17Wed Apr 7 18:17:58 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 646

Perhaps I'm wrong on this from afar but it seems to me that Labour should be hammering away on one thing above all others - local govt funding.

Had the arse ripped out of it under the Tories and it's the kind of thing that would make the biggest difference to the lives of people whose votes they need to win back.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By carrotcruncher(hfc)8/4 13:32Thu Apr 8 13:32:43 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 221

That wouldn't work.

The response would be to highlight some black one legged lesbian group funded by some loony left council as an example of typical wasteful spending.

Irrelevant whether there's any truth in it or not, the people who've ditched Labour for populism already think councils are wasting their money.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Trac - yet another Wood fan7/4 18:30Wed Apr 7 18:30:55 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 611

Yep, labour should be spouting that and it should be happening.

Tbf, we are nearly all from afar.

All I know about East Durham is gleaned from RTG (Sunderland forum) and Google Earth.

A pretty picture is not painted.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ7/4 18:21Wed Apr 7 18:21:11 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 635

It's the route I'd be going down in terms of policy. Not only that but giving more powers/ways for local people to get involved about how money from central govt is spent in their area.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By NWS8/4 14:36Thu Apr 8 14:36:15 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 193

Labour (and other parties) should do free newspapers to highlight the government waste. Gammons like attacking things regardless of it being a forriner, someone unemployed, single mum or a government minister(s). Present it in hateful dramatic terms and get 'em riled.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By interserie7/4 18:13Wed Apr 7 18:13:49 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 654

It was clear that the majority of the Brexit supporters in Hartlepool at the last GE were former Labour voters - The Labour tally in 2019 dropped by 15%, the Tories by only 5%.

Edited by interserie at 18:15:07 on 7th April 2021
Edited by interserie at 18:21:02 on 7th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By uptheshots (uptheshots)7/4 18:27Wed Apr 7 18:27:44 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 620

An outlier in the national picture

When farage pulled back a load of candidates who was he helping? Who was he trying to help?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Trac - yet another Wood fan7/4 18:52Wed Apr 7 18:52:14 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 590

Have a look at the areas where, historically, the BNP did well.

Burnley, Barking etc. Hardly tory strongholds. A proportion of labour's vote was racist and it's an uncomfortable truth that the left has never been willing to acknowledge.

I grew up Borehamwood (well, Boreham Wood when I was younger), which was a little red blob in Hertsmere and there were certainly a fair few racists there.

Edited for lousy spelling.

Edited by Trac - yet another Wood fan at 18:52:58 on 7th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 19:01Wed Apr 7 19:01:07 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 581

A lot of people have racist attitudes or don't like immigration because they're poor and have no opportunities in life. Fortunately for a lot of people now it means you can be left-wing without having to concern yourselves with smelly poor people who aren't even from North London or Brighton.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By uptheshots (uptheshots)7/4 18:12Wed Apr 7 18:12:44 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 634

All other things being equal, mostly Tory.

But as the balance of voting has generally gone from labour to Tory since 2005 if would be easy to confuse this with the point about which party brexit voters generally emanate from and return to.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Lenny Baryea (MUFC)7/4 17:35Wed Apr 7 17:35:30 2021In response to Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 710

Nearly 70% voted Leave in Hartlepool. Labour's candidate is a former MP who supported a second EU referendum before losing a nearby seat in the most recent GE. It's almost as if they want to get beat.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 17:16Wed Apr 7 17:16:56 2021In response to Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 740

Starmer losing a Corbyn safe seat would be quite something for the Labour right to explain away. Would also show he's making the party *more* unpopular in the red wall.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By DMN (DMN (Shit Forum))7/4 19:35Wed Apr 7 19:35:40 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 548

It was Labour voters who moved to the Brexit Party, who are now moving to Tory.

So the root cause is Jezza losing the heart lands.

HTH.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 19:47Wed Apr 7 19:47:36 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 532

Nadia Whittome wants us to talk about new heartlands - the Avocado Belt or the Annoying Little Round Specs Wall or something.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 19:44Wed Apr 7 19:44:04 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 532

That began before Jezza was leader. UKIP began eating in to their votes in the early 2010s.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Noodles (southampton)7/4 19:54Wed Apr 7 19:54:58 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 520

UKIP was the gateway drug for many working class people to move onto the Tories.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Diane Abbott's Afro (The Luton Fan)7/4 19:17Wed Apr 7 19:17:08 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 573

Corbyn lost 15% of his previous total share last time.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ7/4 18:13Wed Apr 7 18:13:32 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 638

What would RLB have done in her leadership to keep Hartlepool red, baring in mind the reason Hartlepool stayed red under Corbyn was a split in the Con/BXP vote and the reason it might go blue is a collapse in the BXP vote moving to the Conservatives. Which of her policies or part of her character would've appealed to those voters?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 19:21Wed Apr 7 19:21:30 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 565

The support for the Tories might not be so large had the opposition had the balls to oppose over the last 12 months. People might be more willing to vote Labour had the current shadow cabinet not shat all over the party's popular policies like free broadband. What's the party's offering now? The PLP are reaping what they've sown if they lose this.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ7/4 20:07Wed Apr 7 20:07:55 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 514

So shouting more? I see. Again, baring in mind that the people who voted BXP and now switching to the Conservatives are extremely likely to have strong socially conservative views which of the Conservative policies should Starmer have shouted about more and why would championing Free Broadband, as good a policy as that may be, have persuaded these socially conservative voters to vote for an extremely socially liberal leader like RLB especially when said voters rejected it in 2019?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 21:31Wed Apr 7 21:31:34 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 454

69% of voters polled in Hartlepool recently support a policy of free broadband. SIXTY NINE PERCENT of all Hartlepool voters! That's why it's a good idea to talk about and another bloody tap in they've missed which even Barnet would have buried.

Can someone answer me what Labour are offering those voters? Giving up and treating them as lost causes because they are socially conservative despite it being a Labour seat since forever makes no sense at all. How long are the electorate going to be bludgeoned with centrist nothingness whether it's TIG/ChangeUK/Lib Dems/Labour before they realise it isn't going to work?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ8/4 10:27Thu Apr 8 10:27:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 282

Wow! That's good. Why didn't they vote for it in 2019 though? The problem you have is people like Labour policy, until you tell them its Labour policy and then they are worried its unaffordable. Not only that, but what's the point in talking about free broadband when the people of Hartlepool know that they won't be getting it by voting for Labour because the Conservatives have an 80 seat majority. In fact, if I was from Hartlepool and I was also socially conservative I'd be looking at the extra money that the Conservatives have been throwing at Conservative controlled seats and thinking "I'll have some of that" and happy in the knowledge that they also share my views on statues and other culture war nonsense. And this is before we even get into the vaccine rollout which has an 85%+ approval rating, name a single govt policy in the last 50 years that had that level of support and will affect every single person in the country, politically engaged or not. That's extremely powerful.

So, all that said what would RLB (the one you voted for and presumably think would be doing better) have done to make those BXP voters go "can I just shock you? I actually like very socially liberal leader of the Labour Party who goes against everything I'm passionate about, despite what I just voted for last year". So far we've got shouting more and free broadband, presumably also alongside being pro pulling statues down, pro Palestine and anti police. I'll be honest, I'm unconvinced.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 10:53Thu Apr 8 10:53:48 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 282

The reason the budget was framed in terms of Teesside and the North East is because they knew this by-election is coming. The fact that they will not deliver on any of these promises to fix the devastation they've caused, which are inadequate in the first place, doesn't enter into it. They will just point to the odd bone they throw to Ben Houchen, and apparently that's enough to convince people to marry their rapists.

If Labour were to suggest any of this it would be unaffordable Communist madness, but they should do it anyway - actually suggesting proper regional change rather than moving a call centre to Darlington and bringing back the freeports they scrapped in the first place should be top of the list. Corbyn certainly didn't appear to give a shit about anything outside of London except for Chile and Palestine.

Edited by Leeds Sandgrounder at 10:54:53 on 8th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 11:00Thu Apr 8 11:00:35 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 279

convince people to marry their rapists.

I do sympathise with that view, but it’s not entirely accurate. Parties and their personnel change and the only decision you can make is on the policies that are out in front of you for each election. Otherwise each election would be fought on the establishment of the NHS vs winning the Cold War.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 11:13Thu Apr 8 11:13:09 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 266

The people in charge of the Conservatives now are the people who came of age whilst it was decided that various parts of the country and the people who lived there didn't matter and thought "I'll have some of that". Are any of the current Cabinet not born of various bullshit consultancy jobs and/or nepotism?

Monstrous bastards don't suddenly turn nice, they are like a virus that adapts to survive. The object is solely to make sure the people who are rich and in charge now are rich and in charge forever. If they occasionally have to throw the plebs some crumbs they will do that, but once they have squashed the collective spirit enough they won't have to bother.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 12:06Thu Apr 8 12:06:00 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 255

I’m not sure that coming of age under Thatcher and joining the party means you are an irredeemable bastard. If one maintains that position then there is no incentive for Labour to make policies that improve things for people. Which is why Labour disappeared up the arse of Islington liberals who hijacked the party with identity politics.

Thankfully the red wall jumped ship and have completely changed the discussion.

In my experience of meeting backbench MPs of both stripes they are generally all wankers. (And surprisingly stupid). But the Tories genuinely believe that the free market is the best way for the country to succeed.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:26Thu Apr 8 12:26:32 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 253

You have to accept the fundamental changes without losing sight of how much better it could have been and could be in future. I would also suggest that having been left a country on its knees Labour did far more to improve people's lives between 1997 and 2008 than any Conservative government ever will in the future - it's a shame they didn't quite have the guts to do all that was required.

Labour being obsessed with identity politics is a bit of a myth really, although very handy for the right. As for the Tories truly believing in a free market, it doesn't seem to translate into proper tendering instead of handing stuff out to their mates, or not bailing out failing companies run by their mates - maybe they aren't that convinced.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:01Thu Apr 8 13:01:02 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 229

Labour between 1997 and 2008 created the conditions for Brexit and more importantly for the 2008 financial crash which saw a hugely negative impact on people's lives and opportunities.

Labour oversaw a rise in income inequality from 1997 to 2008, with the top 1% gaining a higher share of the pie every year https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/how-has-inequality-changed. Labour inherited a Gini coefficient of 33.2 and by 2008 it was 38.6! That's the highest since records began in the seventies and higher than it is even today.

On wealth I can't find the numbers for wealth gini, but the main problem facing young people today is being locked out of the housing market. Labour oversaw a more than doubling of housing prices from 1997 to the financial crisis, the steepest rise ever in real terms. https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/real-house-prices-75-16.png

Labour improved public services but did nothing to stop soaring income inequality, they introduced tuition fees and abolished student grants, and oversaw a massive rise in property prices that has locked kids out of the property market ever since.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By NWS8/4 14:48Thu Apr 8 14:48:40 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 179

We need a government that changes the system or, at least, reels in the banks and introduces proper redistributive policies

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 13:04Thu Apr 8 13:04:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 228

Exactly - they didn't turn the ship around when they had the chance, although it would have been difficult and expensive. Much like privatisation once it's in it is a fucker to reverse.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:07Thu Apr 8 13:07:02 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 230

So Labour's record in power 1997-2010 was the fault of.... the Tories?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 13:09Thu Apr 8 13:09:24 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 221

Yes, apart from the "improved public services" bit. Obviously they aren't really the job of the government.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:32Thu Apr 8 13:32:42 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 217

In that case I'm honestly baffled that you have such low expectations of the party that you believe serves the interests of the working person. If 13 years of Labour government created (or, in your view, failed to stop) many of the problems that bedevil us today, why do you care if they get in next time? Isn't it futile?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 13:35Thu Apr 8 13:35:42 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 224

Everything is futile. I just want to feel slightly less bleak for five minutes on election day before the whole thing begins again.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben9/4 00:02Fri Apr 9 00:02:22 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 125

This is the difference isn't it? You'll back anyone wearing a red rosette because it's your side.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder9/4 00:35Fri Apr 9 00:35:34 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 125

I may not have been being entirely serious there, but generally speaking when you are up against the people who control everything I think it is better if everyone attempts to stick together rather than splintering into smaller and smaller groups because they don't get absolutely everything they want that week, especially when they don't really seem to know what it is. This is because it is not just about me and how good I feel about myself, it is about how the country is run.

Anyway, the difference between what and what? For someone who probably uses the word "solidarity" a lot you don't really seem to believe in it.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:44Thu Apr 8 13:44:05 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 221

I was listening to a podcast on Rosa Luxembourg the other day and I was wondering where socialists' revolutionary cojones have gone.

I understand they would have disappeared in the seventies when inequality was low and the post-war period had delivered many gains, but the ruling class has reasserted control (over both parties IMO, I know you don't agree) and people are getting screwed again under hyperfinancialised capitalism.

I guess the difference now is that there is no grass roots support for socialism. Marx was wrong, revolution is not inevitable... as long as we have debt and consumer electronics.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By NWS8/4 14:51Thu Apr 8 14:51:18 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 188

I'm not convinced Marx was wholly wrong yet

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:00Thu Apr 8 14:00:46 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 205

Labour are not finished yet on that score. It may be a bit mimsy but it is obviously far better than the horrific alternative.

I can't prove it but I am sure Thatcher is somehow behind the relatively recent cult of inane mainly gym-based bullshit positivity, which is designed to stop people questioning anything - the 1980s appears to have abolished right and wrong. The weird adoration of incredibly stupid people and the constant need to be buying or selling something is a profound sickness the post-Thatcher generations seem to have been infected with.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By NWS8/4 14:52Thu Apr 8 14:52:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 179

Plus the freedoms of the banks

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 14:07Thu Apr 8 14:07:09 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 198

And mindfulness... what is that industry but an admission that modern life is making us sick?

I'm sorry to say that Labour is finished as a workers' party. It is focused on minorities and those unable to work.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:11Thu Apr 8 14:11:18 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 190

That seems to be based on the Conservatives saying so. Working people have to live in a country which is currently being killed by a thousand cuts. One thing New Labour did do is get people jobs - I really don't know how a lot of people are going to earn a living quite soon.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 14:22Thu Apr 8 14:22:01 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 191

No it's based on the evidence of the last Labour government; the massive increases in inequality and the flooding of the Labour market with unfettered immigration. And from what I can glean of the current party.

I don't know how people will work either. Maybe that's when armed revolutionaries will reappear.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:27Thu Apr 8 14:27:19 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 189

I never understood why Labour was ever that pro-immigration to be honest - I think it is probably one of the biggest factors in losing what it appears to have lost.

They did create millions of proper jobs though, and brought in the minimum wage and decent public sector pay. That is not nothing, as saving the NHS and rehabilitating public services is not nothing. I think they probably got drugged up on the tax the City and the property bubble brought in, but so did every other economy (not that that's an excuse) - I do think any attempt at regulation would have been met with absolute fire and fury from the people who currently run the country, but that wasn't a good enough reason not to do it with a majority of 170.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 14:46Thu Apr 8 14:46:19 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 181

I think the pro-immigration policies were just the other side of labour... the Islingtonites (Ooooh-ooohh-oh the Islingtonites). Andrew Neather said it was to 'rub the right's nose in diversity'

The problem goes back to the left's start as a revolutionary socialist movement. Revolution was meant to be international... Trotsky believed that revolution could only succeed if it was global (or the ruling class would come back and reassert itself). Lenin & Stalin went the other way, and they have pretty much blotted their copy books by now.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but would disagree on this...

met with absolute fire and fury from the people who currently run the country

My view is that Labour were the people that run the country. The party was completely captured by public school, Oxbridge establishment figures. Blair - Fettes, and Oxford courted business and billionaires for donations and support. He was explicitly pro business.

"They looked from pig to man... " etc etc

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 13:53Thu Apr 8 13:53:01 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 204

Dunno how but the thought process seems to have changed from 'look at those rich bastards living it up whilst we live in poo' to 'wow look at how those rich bastards live, we should run up a shitload of unaffordable debt to live the Primark version and pretend we are like them'
I guess its a mix of the huge reduction in absolute poverty and somehow replacing envy with exaggerated aspiration.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 14:09Thu Apr 8 14:09:44 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 189

Reduction in absolute poverty is definitely a big factor.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben8/4 10:52Thu Apr 8 10:52:36 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 269

"Not only that, but what's the point in talking about free broadband when the people of Hartlepool know that they won't be getting it by voting for Labour because the Conservatives have an 80 seat majority"

I can't tell if you are arguing in good faith here. By that logic, why would anyone vote for anything other than the Conservative party? What even is the point of a by election?

I'm confident by now Nandy or RLB would have done a better job highlighting this government's failings whilst offering a vision of what the country could be like under their stewardship. We've had neither from Starmer. His supporters claim there's nothing he can do, if he loses Hartlepool it is because the Tories are too popular. I say they are popular because the Labour party aren't doing anything to change that perception.

Edited by Barnet Ben at 10:53:09 on 8th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ8/4 11:06Thu Apr 8 11:06:16 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 274

Not arguing in good faith. My Alanis-meter has imploded.

If you were arguing in good faith you'd look at the polls from 2019 and realise the only reason Labour held Hartlepool was because of very rare occasion FPTP actually helped Labour out, with a spilt in the Right vote. Now that split is healed, Labour are getting pushed out, despite a vote share increase, they're up 4 points on 2019.

19:

LAB - 38%
CON - 29%
BXP - 26%

21:

CON - 49% (+20)
LAB - 42% (+4)
BXP/REF - 1% (-25)

And you arguing that a more lefty leader would've won over more of those BXP votes than Starmer. I'm afraid theres only one person here arguing in bad faith.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:27Thu Apr 8 11:27:08 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 274

So none of those BXP voters were previously Labour voters?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 12:06Thu Apr 8 12:06:59 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 269

4%?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:02Thu Apr 8 13:02:13 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 232

Labour's vote has gone up 4%, probably from returning BXP voters.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 13:24Thu Apr 8 13:24:42 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 223

And how many didn't return?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Baldman8/4 13:39Thu Apr 8 13:39:05 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 204

Dunno

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 12:14Thu Apr 8 12:14:23 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 246

Sorry?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 21:42Wed Apr 7 21:42:01 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 450

You mean people supported the idea of free stuff when asked? Well, bugger me.

If this is the main reason you think Starmer is the Devil incarnate then it sort of proves the point that he was never going to get a fair crack from his own side. I don't think free broadband would be in the vast majority of people's top 10 or even top 20 issues when they decide their vote.

Has Labour said it no longer supports free broadband?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 22:04Wed Apr 7 22:04:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 432

When was the last time it was mentioned? What attempt has been made to win over those voters? Anything?

It's not the main reason, no. I've covered those in detail many times already but it's a pledge which would have helped them. But nor does it matter what I think, my vote in this marginal seat doesn't matter I'm told. So it's up to the red wallers who don't appear to be buying it either.

If you're still chearleading for doing nothing politics and blaming lefties for Starmer's failings then there's really nothing more I can say to you apart from enjoy trailing the Cons by 10 points.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 22:21Wed Apr 7 22:21:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 437

You never seem to have any specifics though, apart from this. "Not vocal enough about free broadband" is a criticism I will happily accept, even though I obviously think Keir Starmer is perfect and want him to hold me in his arms.

I think the idea of concentrating on stuff that actually matters like the NHS and crime and the fact that the country is falling apart should be a good one - sadly we have a government that bases policy around by-elections so between that and the vaccines it has probably been difficult. It is frustrating when they miss open goals, and they have been quite shit on the corruption aspect of the pandemic, but I can sort of understand why - everyone is fed up of everything and they are being offered a light at the end of a tunnel.

It is hard to unravel the sheer mess Starmer was left with - you'd think basic self-awareness would mean that your little mates could stop sabotaging the party now, but that obviously isn't going to happen. It wasn't right when it happened to Corbyn from the other side either, but apparently two wrongs make a right as long as you get to tell yourself you're better than everyone else.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Sweepy7/4 20:15Wed Apr 7 20:15:44 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 505

Social conservatism and widespread bling culture have done for Labour. People want their big TVs, car on finance and holiday in the sun. Pious Corbyn? No ta.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?b

By uptheshots (uptheshots)8/4 00:41Thu Apr 8 00:41:54 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 375

What does socially conservative actually mean? Who describes themselves like this?

What is the opposite of socially conservative?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 19:55Wed Apr 7 19:55:04 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 524

Is free broadband the best example you could think of? For fuck's sake.

Perhaps we could have opposed the vaccine rollout. That'd show Johnson!

Edited by Leeds Sandgrounder at 20:13:33 on 7th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 21:38Wed Apr 7 21:38:30 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 446

https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1379214047846006785?s=19

"We don't need popular policies to win elections." Ffs.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Rob27/4 17:45Wed Apr 7 17:45:18 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 682

I thought based on current polling their share of the vote would go up

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 17:42Wed Apr 7 17:42:23 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 694

You must be delighted.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 18:05Wed Apr 7 18:05:49 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 643

Far from it. If I wanted the party to turn in to this, I'd have voted for Keir last April.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 18:08Wed Apr 7 18:08:13 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 638

Turn into what? You'd have piled on Nandy if she'd won as well.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben7/4 19:12Wed Apr 7 19:12:06 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 585

Turned in to a centrist dinner party at Nandos, stumbling from one paywalled Telegraph article to the next. Where the grassroots are ignored and taken for granted, where the optics are focus grouped to death from a UKIP mailing list, where the government are there to be mimicked instead of opposed. Inauthentic, out of ideas, standing for little, offering nothing.

Nandy steps out of line from time to time. She'd have done a better job.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder7/4 19:39Wed Apr 7 19:39:52 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 539

Ah, the "grassroots being ignored". You mean no-one has to care about whatever half-baked mimsy shite Momentum pull out of their arse any more.

Trying to win votes from other parties? The votes of people that might not even care about Palestine? Madness.

You would have tried to get shut of Nandy from the first whistle if she'd won, whatever she did.

Edited by Leeds Sandgrounder at 19:41:17 on 7th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 00:18Thu Apr 8 00:18:48 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 376

What has Keir Starmer offered to the people of Hartlepool that will convince them he gives a single toss about them?

What has he done to convince people he can actually win an election, apart from not being Jeremy Corbyn? Because I think you’ll find, in 2017 being Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t such a bad thing in those parts, and with the split down Brexit lines as deep as it is I really struggle to see how Starmer expects to win these sorts of seats.

But obviously I’m a cultist for not voting for the supreme one in the leadership election citing these exact reasons.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 09:08Thu Apr 8 09:08:31 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 303

I think not being Theresa May was the best thing of all in 2017.

Hopefully what Starmer is doing is projecting a competent and coherent image of what Labour is and what it will do, and pointing out the many failings of this government. I would be the first to say they haven't done it enough yet, but these are not normal times.

I didn't vote for him for leader either, but if anyone doesn't think Starmer would be a better Prime Minister and lead a better government than the succession of sociopathic arseholes we have had since 2010 and continue to have, they are lying to themselves.

The fact that he and Labour have had a couple of bad weeks recently has been met with the inevitable depressing ill-disguised glee and the slightly pathetic pile-on from various jilted failures from Momentum - I doubt that has helped the party's prospects. It's pretty obvious that they don't really care about that.

What specifically should he have done that he hasn't?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ8/4 10:49Thu Apr 8 10:49:03 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 271

My main critism of Starmer so far is nothing to do with policy (because in a pandemic against an 80 seat majority the public couldn't give a shit what Labour are offering) but more to do with his delivery and the way he carries himself. He needs to be more upbeat and willing to laugh at himself, I get we're in a pandemic and the idea is a serious situation calls for a serious attitude but people are weird and style is as important as substance (even if it shouldn't be). Corbyn suffered from the exact same issue when he was put under pressure by the media, he'd get snappy and defensive. I've noticed Starmer sometimes does that too. People hate that. It's why Johnson gets away with a ridiculous amount of shite.

I don't know if he has that in his character but he could do with finding it, especially when you're up against Johnson.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 11:03Thu Apr 8 11:03:47 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 265

Absolutely that. I think people are happy that he can do detail and piss all over Johnson at PMQs, I would just like to see him be funny and warm every now and then - Milliband has made himself look vaguely human since he left, Corbyn's total lack of a sense of humour held him back. I'm told Starmer is a very nice bloke and good company, even if he is an Arsenal fan.

Obviously if he is seen laughing at any point Momentum will put that picture next to a starving child and the Express will put it next to an old lady being mugged by a black teenager but this is what you have to deal with.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:36Thu Apr 8 11:36:01 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 272

Starmer looks like he's going to cry every time he speaks

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Shanghai8/4 12:48Thu Apr 8 12:48:22 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 246

And what is with his voice? I am sure he wasn't that nasally a year ago.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 10:06Thu Apr 8 10:06:06 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 278

What specifically should he have done that he hasn't?

What has he done? What does he believe in, what are his principles, what policies will he look to push if he becomes PM?

The people of Hartlepool will see a choice between a man who has got Brexit done and has just overseen a relatively successful vaccination programme, and an remainer London lawyer who has offered nothing in the way of principle or policy. Most people couldn't give a shit if Starmer outclasses Johnson at PMQs.

The fact that he and Labour have had a couple of bad weeks recently has been met with the inevitable depressing ill-disguised glee and the slightly pathetic pile-on from various jilted failures from Momentum - I doubt that has helped the party's prospects. It's pretty obvious that they don't really care about that.


After the last 5 years or so that's a ridiculous comment. The left of the party were never going to just forget the years of undermining Corbyn and friends and pretend everything's rosy, particularly when the new leader has made no effort to unite the party and instead has gone on the offensive against the left. Corbyn's policies were popular even if he wasn't. There is no appetite to go back to the politics of the Blair years amongst the general public.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 10:46Thu Apr 8 10:46:50 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 272

Specifically what hasn't he done? You're the one saying he's done nothing, You can ask the Corbyn types who've been involved for five minutes to tell you exactly what they would have wanted - somehow they never do.

No-one thinks it is perfect and he has been over-cautious but he has made the arguments about the NHS, the care sector, Track and Trace, public sector pay, transport, education etc - the fact that you never wanted to listen isn't really down to him. As for "London lawyer"... heaven forbid someone from a working-class background should end up having an important job.

The Corbyn stuff is just head in the sand bullshit. Labour always have more popular policies when you ask people, it's credibility that is the issue and Corbyn had none of that in the first place even allowing for the knobheads who did undermine him. Starmer's credibility is now being undermined by his own side out of spite - whatever he did to try ans rebuild the administrative mess he was left was going to be "A WaR ON rEaL SocIaLisTS!!!" because people on that side of the party tend to have Messiah complexes and are happy to have a Tory government forever so they can complain about how evil it is.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 10:56Thu Apr 8 10:56:52 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 273

If Starmer came out with some policies even vaguely resembling the 2017 / 2019 manifestos I for one would get behind him wholeheartedly. If Corbyn had credibility issues despite good policies then surely Starmer with the same policies will walk an election, especially as Boris can hardly use the 'magic money tree' line anymore.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 10:58Thu Apr 8 10:58:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 273

Which policies? How are they different to the ones he stood on?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:23Thu Apr 8 11:23:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 265

Which policies?

Exactly

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 11:25Thu Apr 8 11:25:20 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 265

HOW VERY FUCKING HELL.

I didn't think you'd attempt an answer.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:38Thu Apr 8 11:38:27 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 266

The manifestos are publicly available and easy to find, have a look for yourself.

I don't know anything that Starmer believes in or wants to change, and I read more news than the average Joe in this country, so how is he expecting to cut through and make people think he's the option for them?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 11:43Thu Apr 8 11:43:00 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 256

I have, and presumably so have you.

You don't know because you choose not to know. Unfortunately there is a pandemic happening just at the moment so I don't think he has had quite the same chance as most leaders get, I don't think people are generally very arsed about policy just now. I'd quite like him to be a bit more vocal as well, but no-one's listening.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:58Thu Apr 8 11:58:23 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 264

I think people are arsed about policy, as much as ever. People are worried about jobs, concerned about Brexit (both sides), worried about the NHS, about policing, about their bin collections...

If nobody is listening (I don't think that's true) then make them listen. If your policies and plans are good people will talk about them. He's got a free hit in policy terms really because he won't be in power for years, and the Conservatives have spent tons recently. Fact is he doesn't want any radical change or reform, which is the only way these people will be won back IMO.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:29Thu Apr 8 12:29:41 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 256

If they are so desperate for this radical stuff why didn't they vote for Corbyn?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 12:46Thu Apr 8 12:46:00 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 242

Because they were told he was the second coming of Hitler.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:56Thu Apr 8 12:56:21 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 240

Whereas we all know that is Keir Starmer.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 13:27Thu Apr 8 13:27:12 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 214

Said nobody ever.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben8/4 12:39Thu Apr 8 12:39:12 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 249

Sabotage from the centre.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:54Thu Apr 8 12:54:57 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 234

How convenient. They can't possibly have made their own minds up.

I'm glad you both agree that sabotaging the party's leader is wrong. You can stop doing it now.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ8/4 10:55Thu Apr 8 10:55:43 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 277

FWIW also, no one is really listening to the Corbyn crew. They're loud on social media, but that's it.

https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1380077866583490560?s=19

Survey of Labour party members:

"Compared to Jeremy Corbyn, do you think Keir Starmer is doing better, worse, or about the same as leader of the Labour Party?"

Better: 61%
Worse: 29%

via @YouGov, 17 - 24 Mar

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1378316403854479363?s=19

54% of the general population think he's done either a good job or as well as could've reasonably expected in the circumstances. Only 20% think a bad job. 25% arent paying attention.

And as that thread shows, Starmer's biggest challenge isn't about pandering to socialist views, it's making Labour look competent on the economy again.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben8/4 12:33Thu Apr 8 12:33:51 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 253

Exactly. Why this talk of sabotage from the left is nonsense dreamed up to distract from the party's own ineptitude.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By JonnyJ8/4 15:43Thu Apr 8 15:43:13 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 164

You say ineptitude, I say victim's of circumstance.

I've said it before but polling miles out from an election is only ever a barometer of how well the current govt is doing. The Cummings incident is the best example of this. Cummings breaks lockdown, country feels betrayed, 14 point swing towards Labour in the polls. Labour did nothing to get that support, no one suddenly looked at Labour and went "oh actually I really like their vision for the country" it was simply the publics way of saying "Well I won't be voting for the fucking Tories if that's how they treat us".

6 months back Labour were polling well, which happened to coinside with the Tories being a shambles on the pandemic. Lo and behold, one extremely successful vaccination drive later, everything is rosey for them again. What a surprise, its almost as if the public are simple reacting to govt competence and not actually paying attention to anything else.

The argument of when Starmer needs to start setting out a vision is one we could have all day, there hasn't been a time in recent memory of a LOTO taking over at the start of a pandemic so nothing to compare it to. I would suggest after the summer we need to start seeing some movement on that as an Elex is likely to be 2023. Some would argue its too late, in a perfect world maybe but the pandemic made things tricky, how do you set out a vision for a country when you don't know what you're going to be working with? Imagine if he'd made a load of grand promises he had to scrap because things took a turn for the worst. His favourability ratings are pretty much exactly where Cameron's were after his first year, so to me it's obviously not too late.

I notice they are starting to get more mouthy on Brexit failings, this is good. Polls show that people are drifting from their Remain/Leave identities, though they are still quite significant, it'll be fertile ground for Labour but they have to tread carefully.

The harsh truth though is that if after 4.5 years of Johnson, people feel like things are heading in the right direction, Starmer can offer the moon on a stick and it will mean fuck all, he'll get another term.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 11:17Thu Apr 8 11:17:38 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 271

I know they don't have any real clout or any actual ideas, but it's chipping away at the vote and the general effort and wasting time that could be spent attacking the government. It's also a gift for right-wing journalists.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:39Thu Apr 8 11:39:25 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 269

Were you saying the same in 2019 when the Labour Party was being undermined from within, resulting in the shitshow government we have today?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 11:45Thu Apr 8 11:45:10 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 258

Yes. Apparently two wrongs make a right though.

REAL SOCIALISM.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 11:59Thu Apr 8 11:59:52 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 270

So the centrist wing of the party shit on the left for 5 years, undermining them at every step and actively contribute towards a general election defeat, then expect the left to just fall in line and say nothing when the new centrist leader performs terribly in the polls? Not gonna happen.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:28Thu Apr 8 12:28:46 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 259

A tiny egg of truth wrapped in a big ball of self-pitying bollocks that excuses actively trying to keep the Tories in. It's what I am going to call The Scotch Egg Of Tantrum Socialism.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 12:47Thu Apr 8 12:47:32 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 241

I've not seen anybody actively trying to keep the Tories in, although that is exactly what happened in 2019.

If Starmer really wishes to resolve this and become the sensible voice of reason party (supposedly) why not come out in full support of PR and he can then have the party to do with as he pleases

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:53Thu Apr 8 12:53:05 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 230

Twattery is twattery whether it comes from the "left" or the right. The CWU can go and fuck themselves.

Oh, it's all about PR now. Fucking hell. I hope he does come out in support of it.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 13:26Thu Apr 8 13:26:06 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 212

It's not all about PR, who said it is? PR is the only way out of the Labour infighting

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By grerman8/4 12:46Thu Apr 8 12:46:23 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 255

"actively trying to keep the Tories in"

/www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-saw-inside-how-labour-staff-worked-prevent-labour-government/

/www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/how-top-labour-officials-plotted-bring-down-corbyn

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 12:55Thu Apr 8 12:55:49 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 256

Nice unbiased non-tantrum sources there.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By grerman8/4 13:45Thu Apr 8 13:45:28 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 219

Lol.

Genuinely shocking allegations of a concerted campaign of sabotage from within the party = Nothing to see here, just the scotch egg of tantrum socialism

A few supposedly irrelevant people sniping on Twitter = ACTIVELY TRYING TO KEEP THE TORIES IN, THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT A TANTRUM

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:02Thu Apr 8 14:02:28 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 200

TWO WRONGS ALWAYS MAKE A RIGHT, CONFIRMS BASTANI

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 14:11Thu Apr 8 14:11:25 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 207

It's nothing to do with right or wrong. You cannot expect no reaction after the last 5 years.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:17Thu Apr 8 14:17:06 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 189

You can't expect people to grow up and do something for the good of the country? I think you underestimate how much of Corbyn's general absolute uselessness people swallowed in the last couple of years.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 13:30Thu Apr 8 13:30:02 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 211

/www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/21/peter-mandelson-i-try-to-undermine-jeremy-corbyn-every-day

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 13:33Thu Apr 8 13:33:54 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 207

Wrong then, as we all agree it is wrong now from the other side.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 13:35Thu Apr 8 13:35:57 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 207

Such behaviour is and was wrong. Pointing out Starmer's obvious deficiencies and what (in our opinions) he needs to do to actually win (not lose) seats is not the same thing. There is no such behaviour from the left of the PLP, despite them being treated like shit at every opportunity by Starmer.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 13:41Thu Apr 8 13:41:07 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 210

Mandelson wasn't in the PLP then, and has always been a bellend.

There is fucking loads of it from Momentum. The CWU and Len McCluskey can also go and fuck themselves with an iron stick.

Edited by Leeds Sandgrounder at 13:41:18 on 8th April 2021

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 13:49Thu Apr 8 13:49:47 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 201

It wasn't just Mandelson as you well know.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:05Thu Apr 8 14:05:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 204

Didn't say it was. A lot of the "centrists" actually fucked off due to Corbyn's refusal to deal with anti-Semitism though.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 14:09Thu Apr 8 14:09:38 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 198

Did they though?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:12Thu Apr 8 14:12:15 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 198

Was it a CONSPIRACY?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 15:00Thu Apr 8 15:00:03 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 181

No but it was weaponised by people who didn't give a shit before or since

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 15:00Thu Apr 8 15:00:59 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 182

True. Doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 15:04Thu Apr 8 15:04:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 195

I didn't say it wasn't. But I don't believe for a second that it's the reason centrists left the party.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 15:51Thu Apr 8 15:51:39 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 163

Even the Jewish ones? I think it all fed into the bunker mentality.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 13:57Thu Apr 8 13:57:15 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 200

There is quite a difference here as the centrists were fighting a group taking Labour away from all evidence that you can only win modern politics from the centre (see Cameron massively changing the Tory party).

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 14:08Thu Apr 8 14:08:39 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 189

How do you explain the current Government then?

Given a fair crack of the whip I think a left wing Labour govt would've won in 2017. We will ultimately never know but I think 2017 proved that a left wing government isn't out of the question.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 14:14Thu Apr 8 14:14:17 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 187

You mean the current government run by a one nation Tory that likes spending money and is always banging on about levelling up? He's not exactly a red blooded free marketeer and is socially liberal.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 14:15Thu Apr 8 14:15:14 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 191

Banging on about levelling up whilst doing the complete opposite.

A socially liberal racist homophobe? That's a new one.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Meerkat8/4 14:16Thu Apr 8 14:16:29 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 191

You are going to need to explain all those allegations

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 14:28Thu Apr 8 14:28:54 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 193

Really?

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:13Thu Apr 8 14:13:09 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 198

Starmer would lead a left-wing Labour government.

Labour will never get a "fair crack of the whip" unfortunately.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Barnet Ben8/4 14:16Thu Apr 8 14:16:02 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 193

There's no evidence that would be the case.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:18Thu Apr 8 14:18:02 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 188

There is, but you choose not to see it.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Return of the Macc (WLADITT)8/4 14:14Thu Apr 8 14:14:30 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 194

Starmer would lead a left-wing Labour government.


Brilliant

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By Leeds Sandgrounder8/4 14:18Thu Apr 8 14:18:44 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 188

Thanks.

reply to this article | return to the front page

Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?

By uptheshots (uptheshots)7/4 19:27Wed Apr 7 19:27:45 2021In response to Re: Where's the Brexit Party when you need them?Top of thread

Views: 553

Maybe you can join the Tory party? Infiltrate from within

reply to this article | return to the front page

Previous thread: World Snooker Championship by Staffy at home7/4 13:25Wed Apr 7 13:25:31 2021view thread