Net zero and prosperity.

[Baldman]

Exactly this, whilst China are the biggest polluters right now they're also the biggest investors in Green energy. It means they'll hit net zero before we do plus will also benefit from selling their technologies and energy to the rest of the world.

As ever, China takes the long term 20-100 year time horizon view on things to make sure decisions now come with long term benefits. Whilst, in the west we fall over ourselves with short termism, letting big opportunities go by because all we can think about is election to election. Democracy kind of sucks.

While developing green energy they are massively investing in coal and gas. They have multiplied their electricity generation by 3.5x. We have reduced ours by 35%.

They don’t give a toss about net zero. They have high growth rates.

We lead the world in reducing emissions. We are in a shit state.

One of us is smart. The other is not.

[Mr Nice 2.0]

While developing green energy they are massively investing in coal and gas. They have multiplied their electricity generation by 3.5x. We have reduced ours by 35%.

They don’t give a toss about net zero. They have high growth rates.

We lead the world in reducing emissions. We are in a shit state.

One of us is smart. The other is not.

They'll hit zero before we do.

[Baldman]

They'll hit zero before we do.

Interesting. What is your evidence for that Nicey?

If that’s true then we should be building loads of coal fired power stations and using the productivity gains to develop green tech.

[Kev-YCFC]

We should use what there is now knowing we're a couple of generations off it being a good idea.

[DesCartes]

While developing green energy they are massively investing in coal and gas. They have multiplied their electricity generation by 3.5x. We have reduced ours by 35%.

They don’t give a toss about net zero. They have high growth rates.

We lead the world in reducing emissions. We are in a shit state.

One of us is smart. The other is not.

Rather than dishing out emotive hyperbole ('massively investing in', 'don't give a toss') which has little basis in fact (multiplied their electricity generation over what period of time?), let's have a look at the trend.

As an economy that has continued to grow, their demands for electricity have increased enormously - but, in reality, the growth in generation is greater in solar and wind than it is in oil and gas. The projection is for generation based on fossil fuels to decline over the remainder of this decade:

[Mr Nice 2.0]

Their plan is to be carbon neutral in 2060 and to peak using carbons by 2030. They aim for renewables to account for 25% of all energy by 2030 and their investing heavily in technologies which aim to reduce energy intensity i.e making each tonne burnt go further. There's loads more in their plans to achieve it.

We just have a date of 2050 to reach net zero but without a realistic plan to achieve it.

That's the difference...China has planned out the next 40 years. We've not as we just go from election cycle to election cycle and never get anything long term done properly.

Essentially, i'm saying there's no way we achieve net zero by 2050. But I do believe China will achieve it by 2060.

[Barnet Ben]

What’s the mechanism that means you have to price renewables the same as gas?

The "Marginal cost pricing system". Every energy source on the grid has to be priced on the wholesale market the same as the most expensive energy source, which is usually gas.

[Barnet Ben]

I don’t understand. If wind is cheaper, why does the government have to subsidise it? Wouldn’t the private sector be falling over itself to do it?

If fossil fuels are cheaper why does the government have to subsidise it? Why are those subsidies growing and higher than for renewables? Wouldn’t the private sector be falling over itself to do it?

A huge wave of cheap solar panels and batteries are fucking shit up for Pakistan's fossil fuel national grid. The country can't pay the money it promised to those fossil fuel power plants when built since everyone now makes their own electricity at home for free. Whoops, talk about a lack of foresight! We aren't that stupid as a nation, ignoring a handful of thick Tory MPs. Let's not pretend fossil fuels have much of a future.

https://www.ft.com/content/69e4cb33-3615...ee9d1afe19

[Baldman]

Rather than dishing out emotive hyperbole ('massively investing in', 'don't give a toss') which has little basis in fact (multiplied their electricity generation over what period of time?), let's have a look at the trend.

As an economy that has continued to grow, their demands for electricity have increased enormously - but, in reality, the growth in generation is greater in solar and wind than it is in oil and gas. The projection is for generation based on fossil fuels to decline over the remainder of this decade:

It’s great to see China lauded on here as environmental champions. I would be very happy if we followed their example a bit more.

In 2010 the U.K. emitted 510,000,000 tonnes of CO2. In 2022 the U.K. emitted 318,650,000 tonnes of CO2.

We saved almost 200,000,000 tonnes! Awesome.

In 2010 China emitted 8,620,000,000 tonnes of CO2. In 2022 they emitted 11,400,000,000 tonnes of CO2, an increase of 2,800,000,000 tonnes.

So just taking the net of the two countries’ emissions, we have together increased annual emissions by 2,600,000,000 tonnes.

Cosmic

[Baldman]

If fossil fuels are cheaper why does the government have to subsidise it? Why are those subsidies growing and higher than for renewables? Wouldn’t the private sector be falling over itself to do it?

A huge wave of cheap solar panels and batteries are fucking shit up for Pakistan's fossil fuel national grid. The country can't pay the money it promised to those fossil fuel power plants when built since everyone now makes their own electricity at home for free. Whoops, talk about a lack of foresight! We aren't that stupid as a nation, ignoring a handful of thick Tory MPs. Let's not pretend fossil fuels have much of a future.

https://www.ft.com/content/69e4cb33-3615...ee9d1afe19

No one thinks fossil fuels have much of a future do they? Even China, who have been building loads of new capacity, are preparing for renewables to take over. But they aren’t doing so as part of some moral crusade, and they aren’t doing so while greatly reducing their electricity generation capacity.

Why is the government subsidising wind Ben? It’s a simple question. I don’t know the answer but you sound like you know the subject.